Facebook Removes Hundreds of Media Pages

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fwiw
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Facebook Removes Hundreds of Media Pages

Post by fwiw »

Topic split from Where Should We Get Our News From
DS




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Last edited by Dorje Shedrub on Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Split post - added split from link
... just my opinion, for what it's worth
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Where should we get our news?

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Rule 1 for mindful news consumers should probably be "cross-check".
In that spirit, I quickly found https://www.lewrockwell.com/2018/10/no_ ... ee-speech/
The Online Censors: Facebook's Long History of Closing Down Free Speech
Sputnik News
October 13, 2018

Facebook closed down 559 pages and 251 personal accounts on Thursday. Sputnik takes a look at the omnipotent website’s long track record of censorship.

Facebook said on Thursday, October 11, it was closing pages which were “working to mislead others about who they are, and what they are doing.”

But Jason Bassler, co-founder of one of the pages, The Free Thought Project, told Sputnik it was set up to counter “mainstream media’s bullsh*t narratives.”
Rule 2: "Look at your sources".
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/lew-rockwell/ (a site I don't know, but it looks like it could be useful)
History

Llewellyn Harrison “Lew” Rockwell, Jr. is an anarcho-capitalist writer, activist, and founder and former president of the Ludwig von Mises Institute. Lewrockwell.com was founded in 1999 with the mission to carry on the anti-war, anti-state, pro-market work of Murray N. Rothbard.

Funded by / Ownership

The website is founded and owned by Lew Rockwell. LewRockwell.com is funded through donations and web advertising.

Analysis / Bias

Lew Rockwell is a website that promotes conspiracies, pseudoscience and fringe economic theories. Lew Rockwell uses minimal loaded words in their headlines and articles, but they typically source to far right or questionable sources such as Brietbart, Zerohedge and the #1 purveyor of pseudoscience Joseph Mercola. Some of the topics you will find on the website are those related to anti-vaccination propaganda, Mind Control, False Flags, and anti-immigration articles from other questionable sources. Further, the Lew Rockwell website has been placed on the Hatewatch list by the Southern Poverty Law Center. A factual search also reveals that Lew Rockwell has a very poor track record with fact checkers. For more information I recommend, RationalWiki who has done a fantastic job of putting all of it together. (7/19/2016) Updated (6/13/2018)
Rule 3: "Cross-check" (all the odd-numbered rules are "cross-check")
Lew Rockwell
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Llewellyn Harrison Rockwell Jr. (born July 1, 1944) is an American author, editor, and political consultant. A libertarian and a self-professed anarcho-capitalist,[1] he founded (and is chairman of) the Ludwig von Mises Institute, a non-profit dedicated to promoting the Austrian School of economics. He also started a website in 1999, LewRockwell.com, that features articles and blog entries by a number of right-wing libertarian columnists and writers.
I :heart: internet search engines. :smile:

I don't like Facebook's power but at this point my best guess is that most of the people and pages shut down were no great loss to public life.

:popcorn:
Kim
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fwiw
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Re: Where should we get our news?

Post by fwiw »

I am not sure what just happened above.

Did you

1. Try to see if facebook actually shut down those pages by going to an anarcho-capitalist's website

2. dig some information about said anarcho-capitalist

3. check what wikipedia has to say about him

4. conclude that probably no harm was done?
... just my opinion, for what it's worth
chownah
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Re: Where should we get our news?

Post by chownah »

fwiw wrote: Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:54 pm 4. conclude that probably no harm was done?
Facebook refusing to carry some account is harming no one.....it is there right to run their business as they see fit.
Rockwell's views are still easily obtained on the internet....there is no consequential censurship here. It seems to me that the bottom line here is that rockewell will simply not benefit from being promoted by his views being allowed on facebook. There is no "right" to be promoted by private media companies. Facebook (a private company) is not required to promote everyone who wants it....facebook has used it discretion to stop promoting the things they feel are not appropriate to promote with their business.....that is called freedom.....facebook is free to run their business the way they deem fit and people wanting to obtain rockwell's views are free to do that on the internet (in the usa) which still allows almost total freedom unlike the internet in china for instance....
chownah
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fwiw
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Re: Where should we get our news?

Post by fwiw »

chownah wrote: Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:02 pm Facebook refusing to carry some account is harming no one..... ...there is no consequential censurship here.
This strikes me as blatantly false
chownah wrote: Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:02 pm it is th[eir] right to run their business as they see fit.
When you know that nowadays elections results are being decided for a large part on facebook, don't you think your approach to the problem grants them more power than they should have?

Letting Silicon Valley sociopath billionaires decide what people can and cannot say on the largest platforms of exchanges of ideas, does that really sound like a desirable way to rule social interactions between citizens?
chownah wrote: Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:02 pm There is no "right" to be promoted by private media companies. Facebook (a private company) is not required to promote everyone who wants it....facebook has used it discretion to stop promoting the things they feel are not appropriate to promote with their business.....that is called freedom.....facebook is free to run their business the way they deem fit and people wanting to obtain rockwell's views are free to do that on the internet (in the usa) which still allows almost total freedom unlike the internet in china for instance....
I think we already had this conversation and the bottom line as far as I am concerned is that there are arguments for making it a public utility because for example a lot of businesses depend on facebook.

Otherwise we are regressing in digital feudalism, which apparently libertarian leaning thinkers seem to find all cool.
... just my opinion, for what it's worth
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fwiw
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Re: Where should we get our news?

Post by fwiw »

Oh and also apparently the same outlets got their twitter accounts blocked hours from having their facebook account blocked.

Facebook, Twitter etc. working with the Atlantic Council where people like Kissinger sit has consequences...

What I think is happening is that anti-establishment voices are being shut down, whatever side of the political spectrum they are. Things may get increasingly worse.
... just my opinion, for what it's worth
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Where should we get our news?

Post by Kim O'Hara »

fwiw wrote: Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:54 pm I am not sure what just happened above.

Did you

1. Try to see if facebook actually shut down those pages by going to an anarcho-capitalist's website

2. dig some information about said anarcho-capitalist

3. check what wikipedia has to say about him

4. conclude that probably no harm was done?
Not quite. More like ...
1. Try to see if facebook actually shut down those pages by searching for news on the shut-down and choosing what looked like one of the the best results. The fact that this turned out to be an anarcho-capitalist's website was quite informative: if a source in the bottom right corner of the OP of this thread is the best source (and I noticed that many of the others copy-pasted the same text) then the event was a minor one in global terms. If there was a significant freedom-of-speech issue then Huff Post, Slate or the Guardian would have covered it. They didn't.

2. dig some information about said anarcho-capitalist because I had never heard of him.
3. check what wikipedia has to say about him to see if the first result was at least plausible (wikipedia is good for this.)

4. conclude that any harm that was done was not important enough for me to spend more time on it. I choose to put my free time into issues on which I can have some effect, however small, on alleviating suffering or making the world a nicer place. Defending the freedom of speech of people I disagree with doesn't rate very highly on that scale.

:coffee:
Kim
chownah
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Re: Where should we get our news?

Post by chownah »

I think we already had this conversation and the bottom line as far as I am concerned is that there are arguments for making it a public utility because for example a lot of businesses depend on facebook.
This is the chinese model. In china the gov't would control facebook (maybe they do already in china). I ask everyone reading this to think about whether they want the internet in america to be run like the internet in china and also to think about whether people in china have better access to a broad source of information and opinion.
chownah
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Where should we get our news?

Post by Kim O'Hara »

chownah wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:53 am
I think we already had this conversation and the bottom line as far as I am concerned is that there are arguments for making it a public utility because for example a lot of businesses depend on facebook.
This is the chinese model. In china the gov't would control facebook (maybe they do already in china). I ask everyone reading this to think about whether they want the internet in america to be run like the internet in china and also to think about whether people in china have better access to a broad source of information and opinion.
chownah
I see two problems -
1. The monopoly as such.
2. Whether the monopoly is controlled by the state or by private enterprise.
- and I think #1 is the crucial one.

:namaste:
Kim
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fwiw
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Re: Where should we get our news?

Post by fwiw »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:41 pm If there was a significant freedom-of-speech issue then Huff Post, Slate or the Guardian would have covered it. They didn't.
If your confidence in mainstream media is this high there's no use discussing this. The most important news are ignored by most or all mainstream outlets.
Kim O'Hara wrote: Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:41 pm conclude that any harm that was done was not important enough for me to spend more time on it. I choose to put my free time into issues on which I can have some effect, however small, on alleviating suffering or making the world a nicer place. Defending the freedom of speech of people I disagree with doesn't rate very highly on that scale.
“Goebbels was in favor of free speech for views he liked. So was Stalin. If you’re really in favor of free speech, then you’re in favor of freedom of speech for precisely the views you despise. Otherwise, you’re not in favor of free speech.”

― Noam Chomsky
I think you are sorely mistaken, my friend.

Among the deleted pages you will find The Anti Media, which creates this type of memes:
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... just my opinion, for what it's worth
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fwiw
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Re: Where should we get our news?

Post by fwiw »

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... just my opinion, for what it's worth
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fwiw
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Re: Where should we get our news?

Post by fwiw »

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... just my opinion, for what it's worth
chownah
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Re: Where should we get our news?

Post by chownah »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:00 am
chownah wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:53 am
I think we already had this conversation and the bottom line as far as I am concerned is that there are arguments for making it a public utility because for example a lot of businesses depend on facebook.
This is the chinese model. In china the gov't would control facebook (maybe they do already in china). I ask everyone reading this to think about whether they want the internet in america to be run like the internet in china and also to think about whether people in china have better access to a broad source of information and opinion.
chownah
I see two problems -
1. The monopoly as such.
2. Whether the monopoly is controlled by the state or by private enterprise.
- and I think #1 is the crucial one.

:namaste:
Kim
There are lots of ways that people can interact on the internet. The point is that there is no monopoly. Not only are there many different venues for social media but that also it is not difficult or expensive to create new ones.....this being true in america where the internet is still mostly free from gov't intervention. Not so in china. IN china a social media site only exists because the gov't allows it.

In china there is a state monopoly. In china here is one viewpoint which controls all social interaction. In america there is no monopoly. There are many different viewpoints represented on the internet and any viewpoint which is not represented can be represented without huge difficulty or expense. Each individual site may control the social interaction on that site but there is no individual viewpoint which controls the entire communication network.

The reason why facebook is so popular is that by and large people are mindless sheep who flock to a bastian of sameness, approval, and agreement. The problem is that these sheep do whatever they can to avoid actually thinking about what is happening in the world as long as their neurotic discomforts are soothed. Eliminating freedom on the internet will not fix this problem and will only limit the interaction of broadly divergent points of view which the few thinking people demand.......letting facebook (and every other media outlet) choose what to promote and what to not promote (accompanied by the wide open access to the internet which is still in existence in america) is what makes for the availability of a broad range of views and opinions available to everyone.
chownah
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fwiw
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Re: Where should we get our news?

Post by fwiw »

As you can see you stated that you don't care about a anti-war, anti-imperialism, anti-banker supremacy media outlet being shut down.

Among others that were shut down, you will find a facebook page called "Police The Police" that was aimed at organizing people against police brutality in the USA, which everyone knows is a major problem.

Another outlet that was taken down, the free thought project, has a "Police accountability" section. And among other things, surprise surprise, they are also anti-war, critical of the Israeli regime and its handling of the crisis in the Gaza strip:
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... just my opinion, for what it's worth
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fwiw
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Re: Where should we get our news?

Post by fwiw »

Don't you think that anti-war, humanist, anti-violence voices are important in society and that shutting them down without any explanation is a problem we should all feel concerned with?
... just my opinion, for what it's worth
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fwiw
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Re: Where should we get our news?

Post by fwiw »

chownah wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:53 am
I think we already had this conversation and the bottom line as far as I am concerned is that there are arguments for making it a public utility because for example a lot of businesses depend on facebook.
This is the chinese model. In china the gov't would control facebook (maybe they do already in china). I ask everyone reading this to think about whether they want the internet in america to be run like the internet in china and also to think about whether people in china have better access to a broad source of information and opinion.
chownah
Typically American.

Do like us or else you'll end up like China or north Korea. Like there are only two options, two outcomes instead of a near infinite spectrum of possibilities.
... just my opinion, for what it's worth
chownah
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Re: Where should we get our news?

Post by chownah »

Don't you think that anti-war, humanist, anti-violence voices are important in society and that shutting them down
the point is that no one gets shut down......each media outlet gets to decide what they will allow/promote and what they will not......this is freedom......if anyone thinks a view or idea is not available to people then they can easily start a website and represent that view or idea.

chownah
chownah
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Re: Where should we get our news?

Post by chownah »

fwiw wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:31 am
chownah wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:53 am
I think we already had this conversation and the bottom line as far as I am concerned is that there are arguments for making it a public utility because for example a lot of businesses depend on facebook.
This is the chinese model. In china the gov't would control facebook (maybe they do already in china). I ask everyone reading this to think about whether they want the internet in america to be run like the internet in china and also to think about whether people in china have better access to a broad source of information and opinion.
chownah
Typically American.

Do like us or else you'll end up like China or north Korea. Like there are only two options, two outcomes instead of a near infinite spectrum of possibilities.
If you only knew how much I am not "typically american"... :rofl:
I take your "typically american" comment to be uninformed ad hominom. I guess you say it because you.....oh wait....I'm not supposed to analyze you....I will leave it up to whoever reads your post to determine why you said this and what it shows about you.
chownah
chownah
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Re: Where should we get our news?

Post by chownah »

But let's not lose track of what is important. It is important to remember that no one is being shut down, no one is being censored, everyone is free to put their ideas and views on the internet and receive the readership which their ideas and views can attract given the promoters ability to promote......and most importantly the evil to be watched out for is any system which tries to control the free exercise of the administration of the media.....this is not a theoretic as these controlling systems are extant today and the overall trend seems to be increased control and manipulation....and right here we have people agitating for control and manipulation.....
chownah
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fwiw
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Re: Where should we get our news?

Post by fwiw »

chownah wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:32 am the point is that no one gets shut down......each media outlet gets to decide what they will allow/promote and what they will not......this is freedom......if anyone thinks a view or idea is not available to people then they can easily start a website and represent that view or idea.
Try building up an audience for years (some of these pages had up to 3 million subscribers) and then get your work deleted without any explanation... see if you'll think this is freedom and your work isn't getting suppressed.

chownah wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:43 am
fwiw wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:31 am Typically American.

Do like us or else you'll end up like China or north Korea. Like there are only two options, two outcomes instead of a near infinite spectrum of possibilities.
If you only knew how much I am not "typically american"... :rofl:
I take your "typically american" comment to be uninformed ad hominom.
You are taking it personally, but I was commenting on the idea, not on your person. These ideas you are promoting are typically American. What it says or may reveal about you is not my problem and not the subject of this discussion.

chownah wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:51 am But let's not lose track of what is important. It is important to remember that no one is being shut down, no one is being censored,
I repeat: this is blatantly untrue

chownah wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:51 am and most importantly the evil to be watched out for is any system which tries to control the free exercise of the administration of the media.....this is not a theoretic as these controlling systems are extant today and the overall trend seems to be increased control and manipulation....and right here we have people agitating for control and manipulation.....
I am not sure you understand my point. When I read the above, it feels like you are putting words in my mouth. No need to Don Quichotte this conversation. What I would argue for, which I have not discussed so far, is a set of rules recognized by everyone that have to be transparent, and the take down of any page should be duly supported by facts and breaches of user guidelines, none of which appears to be the case here. Facebook could still take down pages, but not in the shadows like they are doing now.

Also, it could be argued that actively supporting facebook and twitter taking down accounts for no apparent reason amounts to "agitating for control and manipulation".
... just my opinion, for what it's worth
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