Gilets Jaunes : a popular uprising?

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events, politics and economics.
User avatar
fwiw
Posts: 920
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:06 pm

Re: Gilets Jaunes : a popular uprising?

Post by fwiw » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:35 pm

The government has decided to lock down *45* metro and train stations in central Paris. Full list here. Also *56* bus lines will be deviated, limited or shut down.

The government is really afraid of its population. Even greater violence is expected from the police force and from protesters as a response.

fwiw wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:32 pm
I think it becomes safer to say by the day: France is a neoliberal police state
The minister of Justice announced that people have been arrested "preventively", before they even did anything.
... in my opinion

User avatar
fwiw
Posts: 920
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:06 pm

Re: Gilets Jaunes : a popular uprising?

Post by fwiw » Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:04 am

Via google translate:

A CRS (antiprotest squad) testifies: "we are given the order to let destruction of property take place so that the movement becomes unpopular"
"THERE IS THE WILL THAT THE COLLEAGUES LET LOOSE"

The movement of yellow vests shakes the police force. Some officials, like Martin, CRS, have decided to go on sick leave to no longer feel the wrong side of the barricade.

Martin (1) is CRS for many years. Events and interventions sometimes violent, he has known an incalculable number. Despite difficult working conditions and occasional doubts, he has always applied the guidelines with discipline and obedience, as the profession wants. But the police response to the demonstrations of recent weeks ordered by the Ministry of the Interior has so disgusted that he preferred to go on sick leave to no longer condone this indiscriminate repression. "I did not see myself banging on people who did nothing. The use of force is supposed to be proportionate. Even if this term is subjective, it means that we do not have the right to do everything. However, when we are told to gas without warning high school students who protest peacefully, it is an illegal order. In the movement of the yellow vests, it is no longer groups of well-known breakers that we have in front of us, it is the people: people who have a real fight or even who find themselves in a situation of self-defense face to the police, "he protests.

"One wonders if our duty would not be to be with the people. We suffer the same social violence ... "
According to him, there is a real political will to throw oil on the fire. "When we see in the operational reports the number of teargas cans or Flash-Ball used, we are at exceptional levels, while we have lived events much more dangerous for us where we were prohibited from using the launchers of defense balls (official name of Flash-Ball - Ed), "he says. "And that's decisions coming from the Ministry of the Interior," he says. In parallel, "no measurement instructions are given to the CRS, unlike other events where we are pressurized. There is a desire that colleagues let loose, "he says. Especially since the physical state of police officers does not really help matters. "When we have to get up at 2 am to join his company at 3 am and be on the Champs-Elysees from 7 am to 10 pm, we are exhausted and we have not the same discernment and the same self-control, "he recalls.

And it is not the reward promised by Emmanuel Macron that will suffice to ease tensions. "All the colleagues I talked to felt insulted. It felt like it was a su-sugar we were given to shut our mouth and go to do the dirty work, "he says. According to him, the movement of yellow vests has given rise to unpublished debates in his company. "Some would hit father and mother if they were ordered. But there is a real existential crisis for others. We wonder if our duty would not be to be with the people. We suffer the same social violence in terms of salary, and we are doubly victims of the authoritarianism of the state because in addition it is our boss and we are muzzled, "said the official, who observed several sick leave in his company in recent days. "There is not a lot of things that the cops do not want to go back to demonstrate next time," he says.

Regarding the reversal announced in the policing strategy put in place by the Paris police headquarters - from a more static device last Saturday to that planned as more mobile and offensive for this Saturday - Martin believes it this is a "usual political decision". "This is what was done during the last demonstrations against the labor law or May 1st: we are given the order to let destruction of property take place so that the movement becomes unpopular, and the next time we go strong because public opinion is waiting for a reaction of police repression. "

(1) The first name has been changed.

http://www.frontsyndical-classe.org/201 ... laire.html
... in my opinion

User avatar
fwiw
Posts: 920
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:06 pm

Re: Gilets Jaunes : a popular uprising?

Post by fwiw » Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:22 am

According to the Minister of the Interior, there are only 10,000 yellow vests in the entire country.

Yet he mobilized 89,000 policemen in the country for Saturday dec 8th, not to mention 10 armored vehicles in Paris

So if he tells the truth, there will be almost 9 policemen for 1 protester. Who said "police state"?
... in my opinion

chownah
Posts: 501
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:08 am

Re: Gilets Jaunes : a popular uprising?

Post by chownah » Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:26 am

fwiw wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:22 am
According to the Minister of the Interior, there are only 10,000 yellow vests in the entire country.

Yet he mobilized 89,000 policemen in the country for Saturday dec 8th, not to mention 10 armored vehicles in Paris

So if he tells the truth, there will be almost 9 policemen for 1 protester. Who said "police state"?
Two things:
1. I dont' know what the minister said and I'm not willing to accept your summary as being unbiased.
2. You seem to be using the number of gilets juanes as given in the speech compared with the number of police deployed from some unknown source as evidence that there is a "police state"....... :rofl:
chownah

User avatar
Dorje Shedrub
Posts: 448
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:47 pm
Location: Northern Indiana

Re: Gilets Jaunes : a popular uprising?

Post by Dorje Shedrub » Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:06 am

What strikes me is that the yellow jacket movement is not just made up of disgruntled young people.



Of course, we have this problem in the U.S. too.

DS
"As far as social economic theory is concerned, I am Marxist. " ~ HHDL

User avatar
fwiw
Posts: 920
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:06 pm

Re: Gilets Jaunes : a popular uprising?

Post by fwiw » Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:03 am

Here is a live stream directly from the streets for those who might be interested. The police seems a lot less aggressive than it was the last few weeks. The gendarmes (military branch of the police) are a lot more humane and less aggressive than the CRS (antiprotest squads)

... in my opinion

User avatar
fwiw
Posts: 920
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:06 pm

Re: Gilets Jaunes : a popular uprising?

Post by fwiw » Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:30 am

People kneel down in front of the police, sometimes putting their hands in the back of their neck in reference to the now world famous incident I mentioned above yesterday
... in my opinion

chownah
Posts: 501
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:08 am

Re: Gilets Jaunes : a popular uprising?

Post by chownah » Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:00 am

fwiw wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:30 am
People kneel down in front of the police, sometimes putting their hands in the back of their neck in reference to the now world famous incident I mentioned above yesterday
That makes a very good non-violent statement....which is what demonstrations should be in my view although it is not alway clear to me that everyone think that demonstrations should be non-violent.

Here is an idea which you might want to suggest to whoever you might know who might be interested in non-violent street demonstration theatre. In thailand when the last major political disruption happened the protests were markedly non-violent. When it seemed highly likely that the military (which controls the anti protest troups) was losing patience and would perhaps start using violent means the protestors hired professional medical blood draw technicians to take a small amount of blood from thousands of people supporting the protests. They made videos documenting the drawing of the blood and pooling it into containers. Those containers where then given to several protestors and in the next street protest they threw it on the police while chanting "You want our blood, here is our blood".
chownah

User avatar
fwiw
Posts: 920
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:06 pm

Re: Gilets Jaunes : a popular uprising?

Post by fwiw » Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:27 am

Just as we have seen in the US with the loss to Trump, the media (and authorities) are now trying to blame Russia for what is happening on the French soil, implying that Russia would be responsible for fueling the yellow vests protests that would otherwise be dead.

I think it is true that Russia's strategy is to promote dissent in NATO countries, often legitimate dissent, sometimes inaccurate, sometimes just far-right garbage.

In regard to everything I have posted here earlier, this is a funny read:

Russian accounts fuel French outrage online
Hundreds of social media accounts linked to Russia have sought to amplify the street protests that have rocked France, according to analysis seen by The Times.

The network of accounts has circulated messages on Twitter that focus on the violence and chaos of the yellow vest or gilet jaune riots. As the unrest began last month, a group of about 200 monitored accounts was churning out approximately 1,600 tweets and retweets a day. A large proportion of the accounts appear to be so-called “sock puppets”, which purport to be run by westerners.

According to an analysis by New Knowledge, a cybersecurity company, the accounts have spread disinformation, using photographs of injured protesters from other events to bolster a narrative of brutality by French police.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/russ ... -xx2f2g8th

But it is a little less funny when François Ruffin, a former journalist who has been elected to office in Parliament and is widely seen as an inspiring figure even by people who strongly disagree with the left-wing movement he belongs to, is under investigation from the DGSI (General Directorate for Internal Security, French intelligence agency charged with counter-espionage, counter-terrorism, countering cybercrime and surveillance of potentially threatening groups, organisations, and social phenomena according to wikipedia) for "sedition and conspiracy against the state."

I loosely follow this guy, and I saw recently in one of his videos he said he doesn't believe in French institutions as they currently are because they don't represent the people and deny them democracy, which apparently about 70% of French people agree with. Basically, he is like Ocasio-Cortez, a honest outsider elected to the political system who reports about it as if any regular citizen was in his place, with the interest of the public in mind rather than private and self interests.

Bottomline: the French government is investigating popular political opponents. France is getting closer to dictatorship by the day


Dt5q_E2XgAAsudW.jpg
Dt5q_E2XgAAsudW.jpg (78.51 KiB) Viewed 1875 times
... in my opinion

User avatar
fwiw
Posts: 920
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:06 pm

Re: Gilets Jaunes : a popular uprising?

Post by fwiw » Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:00 am

Yet another dictatorial move: a spokesperson for the yellow vests has been arrested in Grenoble in the midst of an entirely peaceful protest for "illicit protest and criminal participation to an illegal protest". We can see very clearly on this video precisely how and the exact moment when institutional violence creates violence in the streets. And how the government takes steps to foment such violence, radicalize protesters and trying always the same strategy of divide and conquer in hopes that those who have not been properly informed (or have been properly misinformed by the msm) about what happens on the ground will desolidarize themselves from the yellow vests movement





At the same time, members of the government keep saying the yellow vests need representation. It's the same old trick that makes "democracies" in fact oligarchies: the people are supposed to be in power by means of their representatives. What happens in reality is that such representatives are either chosen by the parties because they are already corrupt, or they become corrupt themselves, or when they are really incorruptible they get criminalized, as was the case here and with François Ruffin (above).
... in my opinion

User avatar
fwiw
Posts: 920
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:06 pm

Re: Gilets Jaunes : a popular uprising?

Post by fwiw » Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:34 am

chownah wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:26 am
fwiw wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:22 am
According to the Minister of the Interior, there are only 10,000 yellow vests in the entire country.

Yet he mobilized 89,000 policemen in the country for Saturday dec 8th, not to mention 10 armored vehicles in Paris

So if he tells the truth, there will be almost 9 policemen for 1 protester. Who said "police state"?
Two things:
1. I dont' know what the minister said and I'm not willing to accept your summary as being unbiased.
2. You seem to be using the number of gilets juanes as given in the speech compared with the number of police deployed from some unknown source as evidence that there is a "police state"....... :rofl:
chownah
A reminder that links providing a source are meant to be clicked on by people who want to see for themselves. If I neglect checking for myself the sources provided by someone while assuming by default they are untrustworthy, I will have a hard time coming off as intellectually honest.

1. clicking on the link (and perhaps using google translate on the headline) would have proven unequivocally that my statement was 100% accurate (the source is BFMTV = Business FM TV, a strongly pro-Macron media outlet and self-proclaimed n°1 news channel in France)

2. there is a completely false and uninformed claim here that the source on the number of policemen deployed was "unknown". The source was actually the Prime Minister on TF1, the n°1 French public channel. It is difficult to find anything more diametrically opposed to an "unknown source".

The same minister of the interior eventually said there were 10,000 protesters in Paris alone and about 125,000 countrywide. Even these figures are highly questionable because the exact same source (minister of interior) falsely claimed the day earlier that there were only 10,000 countrywide, which was a ridiculously low estimate (more than 10 times lower than reality even according to the minister himself).

The government keeps undermining its credibility and reveals its true colors: a gang of liars working for the rich against the poor. In other words, institutional class warfare.
... in my opinion

User avatar
fwiw
Posts: 920
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:06 pm

Re: Gilets Jaunes : a popular uprising?

Post by fwiw » Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:47 am

In the end, the ratio In Paris, according to official sources, was of 8,000 policemen for 10,000 protesters.

That's exactly what a police state looks like.

Of course, there are reasons to think that the actual number of protesters was much higher
... in my opinion

chownah
Posts: 501
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:08 am

Re: Gilets Jaunes : a popular uprising?

Post by chownah » Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:26 am

fwiw wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:47 am
In the end, the ratio In Paris, according to official sources, was of 8,000 policemen for 10,000 protesters.

That's exactly what a police state looks like.

Of course, there are reasons to think that the actual number of protesters was much higher
How many policemen would have been a number that would not have looked lik a police state to you?
chownah

User avatar
fwiw
Posts: 920
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:06 pm

Re: Gilets Jaunes : a popular uprising?

Post by fwiw » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:34 am

chownah wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:26 am
fwiw wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:47 am
In the end, the ratio In Paris, according to official sources, was of 8,000 policemen for 10,000 protesters.

That's exactly what a police state looks like.

Of course, there are reasons to think that the actual number of protesters was much higher
How many policemen would have been a number that would not have looked lik a police state to you?
chownah
How many policemen would have been a number that would have looked like a police state to you?
... in my opinion

chownah
Posts: 501
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:08 am

Re: Gilets Jaunes : a popular uprising?

Post by chownah » Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:42 am

fwiw wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:34 am
chownah wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:26 am
fwiw wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:47 am
In the end, the ratio In Paris, according to official sources, was of 8,000 policemen for 10,000 protesters.

That's exactly what a police state looks like.

Of course, there are reasons to think that the actual number of protesters was much higher
How many policemen would have been a number that would not have looked lik a police state to you?
chownah
How many policemen would have been a number that would have looked like a police state to you?
For me the number of police either in total or out on the street for any reason does not look like a police state. In strong police states there are very few police needed since there is little opposition evident in public because they all get locked up and are in jail. In a police state they come and get you at night alot....or they drive up to your house and haul you away and no one interferes. Hitler ran a police state and there were few demonstrations against his policies once he got his power consolidated.....he didn't need a large police presence in the streets because he ran a police state.

For me it would look like a police state if the police carried wood or steel riot sticks instead of the rubber ones the french police use.....if the police carried guns with live ammunition with real lead bullets and if the police used them freely....if there were police snipers on the roof shooting at all those easy to see and easily identifiable yellow vests....or even at just certain selected ones.

In police states most "demonstrations" are clandestine in nature.

How many police would maduro have to deploy for you to consider venezuela to be a police state? If this is determined to be off topic I will ask it again in the venezuela thread.
chownah

User avatar
fwiw
Posts: 920
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:06 pm

Re: Gilets Jaunes : a popular uprising?

Post by fwiw » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:09 pm

The Oxford English Dictionary traces the phrase "police state" back to 1851, when it was used in reference to the use of a national police force to maintain order in Austria.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_state#cite_ref-4
The Prussian Secret Police, however, did not routinely engage in persecution or the abuse of police powers, and did not behave in the way that other secret police forces might.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Secret_Police

Here is a glimpse of what the original "police state" looked like
Thematically, the Police Union's activities can be divided (following Siemann 1983b) into the following two categories: surveillance of the press, and the policing of political opposition.
...
The Police Union's activities associated with the policing of the press included the surveillance of bookstores and publishing companies; the confiscation of 'subversive' pamphlets and writings; and the transmission of information on political publications and the routes through which they were distributed. The policing of the press mainly involved making up lists of publishing companies that could possibly print anti-government political writings.
...
The Police Union's political work comprised the surveillance of anti-government parties; a swift exchange of names and organizations of politically suspect nature; and the confiscation of political pamphlets.
http://deflem.blogspot.com/1996/09/inte ... ntury.html

You are interpreting this term in your own way and trying to make it sound like it's the only correct way to interpret it. However, differing viewpoints exist and others may have proper reasons to see the term differently.
... in my opinion

User avatar
fwiw
Posts: 920
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:06 pm

Re: Gilets Jaunes : a popular uprising?

Post by fwiw » Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:14 pm

This is exactly what a police state looks like: a journalist filming acts of extreme police brutality on citizen protesting the government is himself violently attacked by a policeman in heavy gear who kicks him and threatens him so that he will stop filming those acts of police brutality. Citizens are illegally denied their rights and there is complete absolution for the policemen involved. Recorded attacks of the police on journalists filming police brutality have multiplied over the past few weeks. Some people, including on these very pages, try to downplay the whole thing, but a vast majority of French people are getting the memo, and it will only give them more incentive to keep protesting.




This reporter got his phone smashed by the police because he was filming a scene of police brutality:
Screenshot_2018-12-09_17-18-08.png
Screenshot_2018-12-09_17-18-08.png (305.51 KiB) Viewed 1835 times

... in my opinion

User avatar
fwiw
Posts: 920
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:06 pm

Re: Gilets Jaunes : a popular uprising?

Post by fwiw » Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:11 pm

This video created by a tiny independent media I have been supporting was banned from facebook, probably way too viral and critical of the powers that be. It's subtitled in English. I let everyone be the judge of whether it's worth censoring it

... in my opinion

User avatar
Dorje Shedrub
Posts: 448
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:47 pm
Location: Northern Indiana

Re: Gilets Jaunes : a popular uprising?

Post by Dorje Shedrub » Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:11 pm

chownah wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:00 am
fwiw wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:30 am
People kneel down in front of the police, sometimes putting their hands in the back of their neck in reference to the now world famous incident I mentioned above yesterday
That makes a very good non-violent statement....which is what demonstrations should be in my view although it is not alway clear to me that everyone think that demonstrations should be non-violent.

Here is an idea which you might want to suggest to whoever you might know who might be interested in non-violent street demonstration theatre. In thailand when the last major political disruption happened the protests were markedly non-violent. When it seemed highly likely that the military (which controls the anti protest troups) was losing patience and would perhaps start using violent means the protestors hired professional medical blood draw technicians to take a small amount of blood from thousands of people supporting the protests. They made videos documenting the drawing of the blood and pooling it into containers. Those containers where then given to several protestors and in the next street protest they threw it on the police while chanting "You want our blood, here is our blood".
chownah
Throwing containers of blood at someone is not a non-violent act.

DS
"As far as social economic theory is concerned, I am Marxist. " ~ HHDL

User avatar
Dorje Shedrub
Posts: 448
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:47 pm
Location: Northern Indiana

Re: Gilets Jaunes : a popular uprising?

Post by Dorje Shedrub » Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:13 pm

chownah wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:42 am
Hitler ran a police state and there were few demonstrations against his policies once he got his power consolidated.....he didn't need a large police presence in the streets because he ran a police state.
Hitler had Gestapo everywhere, but most were in plain clothes.

DS
"As far as social economic theory is concerned, I am Marxist. " ~ HHDL

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 24 guests