Should Capitalism be outgrown?

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fwiw
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Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:13 pm

Not sure if the title makes proper sense in English. Any NES please let me know if I should improve this title.

Basically this is a thread about whether humanity should keep going with capitalism or if (perhaps for the sake of its own survival) it should outgrow it and invent something better.
... in my opinion

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:15 pm

Prof Richard Wolf is a modern day critic of capitalism and calls for bringing democracy at the work place (advocating for worker coops).


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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:03 pm

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:05 pm

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... in my opinion

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:18 pm

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by DNS » Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:06 am

Everyone always talks about minimum wage, understandably so; but how about a maximum wage?

No one is worth $200 M per year (not in today's buying power anyway). Assuming a 40 hour work week, that calculates out to $96,153 per hour or $1,602 per minute. He takes a moment to look out the window -- there's another $1,600 earned; ridiculous.

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by Kim O'Hara » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:43 am

DNS wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:06 am
Everyone always talks about minimum wage, understandably so; but how about a maximum wage?

No one is worth $200 M per year (not in today's buying power anyway). Assuming a 40 hour work week, that calculates out to $96,153 per hour or $1,602 per minute. He takes a moment to look out the window -- there's another $1,600 earned; ridiculous.
I have vague memories of regulations in some Western country which didn't set any absolute limits on wages but did limit the difference between the highest and lowest pay levels within any company - a differential of (e.g.) 20 times was mandated. It seemed to be a good idea at the time.

More importantly, we seem to be agreed that inequality, as such, is the primary problem.
If so, capitalism, as such, isn't the problem (China is as unequal as the US - if not more so) unless we believe that capitalism always creates inequality. Even then, we need an alternative which isn't worse. Is the question posed in the thread title the most useful one we can ask?

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw » Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:18 pm

DNS wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:06 am
Everyone always talks about minimum wage, understandably so; but how about a maximum wage?
Yes, this is what would most probably happen in a post-capitalist system where worker coops are the norms, as advocated by Richard Wolf. In real coops, everyone participates to the decision making process, including to decide the wages. This is what can be seen in existing coops.


Kim O'Hara wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:43 am
unless we believe that capitalism always creates inequality.
Is there a reason to believe otherwise?
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by Kim O'Hara » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:28 pm

fwiw wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:18 pm
...
Kim O'Hara wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:43 am
unless we believe that capitalism always creates inequality.
Is there a reason to believe otherwise?
I haven't come across one :juggling: but I'm sure the Defenders of the Capitalist Faith have been forced to argue against that idea.

And the other half of what I said -
Even then, we need an alternative which isn't worse.
- also matters.
If it can be shown that Russian-style or Chinese-style Communism always creates inequality, then what can we point to and say, "Let's do this instead?" Cuba, where everyone is poor but inequality is not so extreme? The Scandinavian model of a mixed socialist/capitalist system? Something which has never been tried?

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:22 am

Kim O'Hara wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:28 pm
And the other half of what I said -
Even then, we need an alternative which isn't worse.
- also matters.
If it can be shown that Russian-style or Chinese-style Communism always creates inequality, then what can we point to and say, "Let's do this instead?" Cuba, where everyone is poor but inequality is not so extreme? The Scandinavian model of a mixed socialist/capitalist system? Something which has never been tried?

As I have said earlier in this thread, Richard Wolff proposes an evolution towards a worker coops model. His analysis is that Communists have not fundamentally changed how businesses worked. The owners changed but the same kind of top-down authoritarian organization that we can see in capitalist corporations was implemented. What he advocates for is to bring democracy to the workplace, as coops often try to do. It would not have to be brutal or violent, it could just be a smooth and slow evolution towards another way of doing business. It could be monitored every step of the way to make sure it does not make things worse, but better. And it seems that the evidence we have so far with existing worker coops is that it does make things better.
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:02 pm

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw » Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:37 pm

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by Kim O'Hara » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:07 pm

Here's a think-piece about maximum wages - https://bigthink.com/politics-current-a ... 2619420027
... Just like the idea that there should be a minimum wage, the idea that there should be a maximum wage seems to undermine the very freedom that the free market is supposed to guarantee.

This view, however, has some dramatic consequences. One is the explosion in economic inequality that almost all liberal capitalist democracies have experienced over the past 30-40 years. The difference between the top and the bottom of the income distribution now lies about where it did in the Gilded Age and the roaring 1920s, up until the Great Depression. Unlike these earlier periods, however, this rise in economic inequality has not been driven by returns on capital assets. This time, one of the most important contributors to the rise has been the payment of extraordinarily high levels of compensation to corporate executives. ...
:reading:
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by Bundokji » Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:13 pm

I don't think ideas such as capitalism, communism, socialism, feudalism ...etc cannot be meaningfully discussed in isolation from other values integral to each system. I think each economic system is linked to other beliefs in relation to what is natural, what is good, what is justice, what makes us humans and the role we should play in the world ...etc

Before trying to outgrow capitalism (or any system) we need to state what is wrong with it, then after stating why we think its bad, we will notice that our judgements can be traced back to certain values, which in turn needs to be equally justified.
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw » Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:03 am

Bundokji wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:13 pm
Before trying to outgrow capitalism (or any system) we need to state what is wrong with it
Cool. How about this for example?

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by Kim O'Hara » Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:27 am

fwiw wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:03 am
Cool. How about this for example?


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At this stage of our discussion, that's no more than an unsupported opinion from someone called Lee Camp.
I guess it's an opinion you share, since you probably wouldn't have posted it if you disagreed with it.
I think it's mostly true, too, but I don't think it's by any means an adequate response to, "we need to state what is wrong with [capitalism]."
Does Camp have expertise in the field? If so, a link to something more substantial than a tweet would be more convincing.

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw » Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:14 am

Kim O'Hara wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:27 am
At this stage of our discussion, that's no more than an unsupported opinion from someone called Lee Camp.
Can you find an example of a single country with capitalist economy that does not have crony capitalism going on? It would be just as difficult as finding a government in a country on earth without a single corrupt member. Even if one was to find such a country, the statement could just be corrected to say "Capitalism leads to government working in favor of those with the most capital in 99% of cases". Would it really make such a big difference in the overall discussion about capitalism's flaws that it would justify such nitpicking precautions?
:roll:

Kim O'Hara wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:27 am
I think it's mostly true, too, but I don't think it's by any means an adequate response to, "we need to state what is wrong with [capitalism]."
Is it that you think that crony capitalism is not wrong? Or that it is not relevant to a critique of capitalism? I really fail to see the logic here. And I'm not going to comment on what your intentions appear to be.
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by Bundokji » Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:23 pm

fwiw wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:03 am
Cool. How about this for example?
Screenshot_2018-12-27_06-15-37.png
Based on the tweet you shared, you seem to oppose capitalism because it creates a kind of hierarchy in which the rich use their money/capital to influence politicians to take decisions that are not necessarily beneficial to the nation but to their own limited self interest, and you seem to view this as a kind of corruption. In a democratic system, where people by the law have equal rights to vote, they should have an equal right to influence, but in capitalism, there is a gap between theory and practice, and people are far from being treated as equals.

Is the above a true/accurate description of your critique of capitalism (or crony capitalism)? If so, then we can build on it through further analysis. If not, then you have the chance to elaborate further.
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by dxm_dxm » Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:13 pm

If this was a good idea that leads to better productivity, it would have already been implemented voluntarily on a mass scale. Why in the world would you let people who don't have a clue about economics or even simple mathematics make important decisions regarding a company?

There is no alternative to free market capitalism. No communist country ever passed the 2000$ GDP per capita mark, while USA is standing at 60.000$. Whatever small disadvantages capitalism has, they are nothing compared to being hungry all the time, having no electricity, no heating in winter, etc.

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw » Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:02 pm

dxm_dxm wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:13 pm
If this was a good idea that leads to better productivity, it would have already been implemented voluntarily on a mass scale.
Here is one thing that will improve productivity: slavery. Or is it that productivity is not the most important thing?

Why in the world would you let people who don't have a clue about economics or even simple mathematics make important decisions regarding a company?
Codetermination in Germany doesn't seem to work that bad.

There is no alternative to free market capitalism.
So, I guess, no point discussing this, right?

Whatever small disadvantages capitalism has
Like putting the pedal to the metal as the 6th mass extinction is unfolding before our eyes?
... in my opinion

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