Should Capitalism be outgrown?

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DNS
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by DNS »

lyndon taylor wrote: Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:13 am Its called feudalism, look it up!! You're making the same mistake the Maoist Chinese made when they confused Tibetan feudalism with capitalism. with terrible results.
The Maoist Chinese took over Tibet because the Maoists were communist and they were opposed to the religious kingdom there. It may have been a religious feudalism, but they still engaged in trade and other elements of capitalism and that is why the communists were opposed to them.

Over half a billion Chinese came out of poverty when the Chinese government adopted more capitalist policies over the last 20 years or so.
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by lyndon taylor »

Sorry the Chinese opposed the Tibetans because they saw the Monks as the Capitalist overlords that had to be oppressed like capitalists in other areas, except the monks weren't capitalist, it was a feudal system, the communists didn't seem to understand that.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk.

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by DNS »

You can believe whatever you want, but in all cases in all those societies from ancient India and others there was trade, private businesses, bankers; i.e., elements of capitalism.
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by lyndon taylor »

FYI capitalism didn't get started till the 17th century

http://www.solfed.org.uk/a-s-history/un ... capitalism
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk.

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by DNS »

You're quoting someone's blog, hardly a reliable source of history.
Varieties of capitalism

It is an ongoing debate within the fields of economics and sociology as to what the past, current and future stages of capitalism consist of. While ongoing disagreement about exact stages exists, many economists have posited the following general states. These states are not mutually exclusive and do not represent a fixed order of historical change, but do represent a broadly chronological trend.

Laissez-faire capitalism, a social system in which the government is exclusively devoted to the protection of individual rights, including property rights – one in which there exists absolutely no government intervention in the economy.
Agrarian capitalism, sometimes known as market feudalism. This was a transitional form between feudalism and capitalism, whereby market relations replaced some but not all of feudal relations in a society.
Mercantilism, where national governments sought to maintain positive balances of trade and acquire gold bullion.
Industrial capitalism, characterized by its use of heavy machinery and a much more pronounced division of labor.
Monopoly capitalism, marked by the rise of monopolies and trusts dominating industry as well as other aspects of society. Often used to describe the economy of the late 19th and early 20th century.
Colonialism, where governments sought to colonize other areas to improve access to markets and raw materials and improve the standing of nationally based capitalist firms. Predominant in the 1890s, notably as a response to the economic crises of the 1890s.
Welfare capitalism, where mixed economies predominated and governments sought to provide a safety net to alleviate the worst abuses of capitalism. The heyday of welfare capitalism (in advanced economies) is widely seen to be from 1945 to 1973 as major social safety nets were put in place in most advanced capitalist economies.[2]
Mass production, post-World War II, saw the rising hegemony of major corporations and a focus on mass production, mass consumption and (ideally) mass employment. This stage sees the rise of advertising as a way to promote mass consumption and often sees significant economic planning taking place within firms.[3]
State capitalism, where the state intervened to prevent economic instability, including partially or fully nationalizing certain industries. Some economists also include the economies of the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc in this category.[4]
Corporatism, where government, business and labor collude to make major national decisions. Notable for being an economic model of fascism, it can overlap with, but is still significantly different from state capitalism.
Financialization, or financial capitalism, where financial parts of the economy (like the finance, insurance, or real estate sectors) predominate in an economy. Profit becomes more derived from ownership of an asset, credit, rents and earning interest, rather than actual productive processes.[5][6]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... capitalism

As scholars and historians have noted, it was a broad chronological process that started with markets and businesses, i.e., elements of capitalism that developed into the modern capitalism.
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

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... just my opinion, for what it's worth
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

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... just my opinion, for what it's worth
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

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... just my opinion, for what it's worth
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by SethRich »

Greetings,
Basically this is a thread about whether humanity should keep going with capitalism or if (perhaps for the sake of its own survival) it should outgrow it and invent something better.
I think Capitalism itself is fine... what needs to be rooted out is the cronyism and the deep state that have infected governments worldwide.

That way the market can continue to be the lead driver of the economy, and any monies collected via tax revenue can be put to things that actually benefit the citizenry, and not those misappropriating and embezzling the public purse for their own private benefit. If more people had a sense of the scams and rorts that take place, and the true reason why nations suddenly cannot balance a budget (whereas it was common place for them to do so during the 20th century) they would be thoroughly disgusted. One thing is for sure, people would certainly no longer be advocates of "big government".

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by DNS »

fwiw wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:26 pm Screenshot_2019-11-05_19-45-03.png
Socialism never solves the problem of slums, it only increases their numbers.
Socialism never solves the problem of the poor, it just makes everyone poor.
Socialism cannot solve such social problems, because it is the problem.
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by DNS »

Yes, I agree with Seth, it is not capitalism per se, but rather cronyism, which occurs at both extremes. Often what capitalism gets blamed for is just regular corruption and cronyism and this happens with political systems on the left and the right.

I am not a far-right Libertarian, but note that the hard-core Libertarians (who are capitalist) are opposed to government no-bid contracts, to bailouts of multi-billion dollar corporations, banks, etc.
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Food for thought:
Capitalism Made This Mess, and This Mess Will Ruin Capitalism
...Most of us have probably heard of the Anthropocene, humanity’s stain on the geological record through activities like land misuse and plastic pollution. Jason Moore, an environmental historian and sociologist at Binghamton University, calls the problem something else: the Capitalocene. WIRED sat down with Moore to talk about what got us into this mess, why capitalism won’t survive it, and what a brighter future might actually look like.

WIRED: What is the Capitalocene you’re proposing?

Jason Moore: Capitalocene is a kind of critical provocation to this sensibility of the Anthropocene, which is: We have met the enemy and he is us. So the idea that we're all going to cover our footprints, we're going to be more sustainable consumers, we're going to pay attention to population, are really consequences of a highly unequal system of power and wealth.

...WIRED: Is capitalism compatible at all with any movement on climate change?

That's the classic ecosocialist question. It's very clear that the problem is not technological—there are the technological means to decarbonize very rapidly. Still, if you solarize and go with wind, you have to store all the energy, you have to rebuild the electrical grids. It's usually costly, and finance capital is really wary of those long-term projects.

What the venture capitalists want is a very narrow version of a technological application that can be used and put on the market right away. Out there in the culture, we think of capitalism as entrepreneurial and risk-taking and innovative, and that sometimes is the case but only within a very, very narrow frame. And we're talking about huge existential transformations of the earth. ...
https://www.wired.com/story/capitalocene/

:namaste:
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw »

SethRich wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:47 pm I think Capitalism itself is fine... what needs to be rooted out is the cronyism and the deep state that have infected governments worldwide.
Could you clarify what you call the "deep state"? An organization that "infects" governments worldwide.. you mean the IMF? the CIA? Cultural Marxists?

That way the market can continue to be the lead driver of the economy, and any monies collected via tax revenue can be put to things that actually benefit the citizenry, and not those misappropriating and embezzling the public purse for their own private benefit.


I agree with this, except that I believe the market should be regulated to render unethical behavior illegal.

If more people had a sense of the scams and rorts that take place, and the true reason why nations suddenly cannot balance a budget (whereas it was common place for them to do so during the 20th century) they would be thoroughly disgusted.
I think I would put tax evasion first, then paying cumulative interest on national debt (see what happened to Greece). I would not include taking care of the poor here.

One thing is for sure, people would certainly no longer be advocates of "big government".
Well, my Libertarian friend agrees that government should prevent people from harming one another, which would make the government active in the economy. Do you concur?
... just my opinion, for what it's worth
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw »

DNS wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:48 am
fwiw wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:26 pm Screenshot_2019-11-05_19-45-03.png
Socialism never solves the problem of slums, it only increases their numbers.
Socialism never solves the problem of the poor, it just makes everyone poor.
Socialism cannot solve such social problems, because it is the problem.
Come on, in France, at our economical worst, right after WW2, we adopted social progress like 40-hour work week

And then we nationalized

- The largest banks
- gas and electricity companies
- large insurance companies
- auto maker Renault
and many more

We socialized healthcare and retirement pension schemes, and created a special status for government workers

The result? The fastest growth the country has ever seen, that lasted for 30 years (les Trentes Glorieuses)


Now, if you read Richard Wolff, you'll see he doesn't advocate for Plain Old Socialism. He is in favor of democracy at the workplace, as can be seen in many coops. These business can compete with present day capitalist enterprises and even beat them to their own game.
... just my opinion, for what it's worth
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw »

DNS wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:52 am Often what capitalism gets blamed for is just regular corruption and cronyism and this happens with political systems on the left and the right.
This is an interesting angle, which I shall keep in mind from now on and see if it applies well to all cases where capitalism is blamed. I kind of doubt it will, but we'll see. There might be a follow-up on this.

I am not a far-right Libertarian, but note that the hard-core Libertarians (who are capitalist) are opposed to government no-bid contracts, to bailouts of multi-billion dollar corporations, banks, etc.
Yes I know the those three you mentioned. My knowledge may not go very much deeper though


As I have said before, as long as capitalism is not able to function without demanding perpetual growth, the planet as a whole, whose resources are finite, will suffer, in my opinion.
... just my opinion, for what it's worth
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by DNS »

fwiw wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:24 am The result? The fastest growth the country has ever seen, that lasted for 30 years (les Trentes Glorieuses)
Yes, thanks to the Marshall Plan. :D

The United States gave over $12 billion (nearly $100 billion in 2018 US dollars) in economic assistance to help rebuild Western European economies after the end of World War II. Thanks to the capitalist system at the time (prior to cronyism), the U.S. was the wealthiest nation and helped you guys out. :tongue:
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw »

DNS wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:46 am
fwiw wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:24 am The result? The fastest growth the country has ever seen, that lasted for 30 years (les Trentes Glorieuses)
Yes, thanks to the Marshall Plan. :D
If this is actually meant to dismiss my comment (as it seems to be), then are you actually claiming that everything that happened in France between 1946 and 1975 was thanks to financial help from USA between 1948 and 1952?

From your wikipedia article:
[The Marshall Plan's] role in the rapid recovery has been debated. The Marshall Plan's accounting reflects that aid accounted for about 3% of the combined national income of the recipient countries between 1948 and 1951, which means an increase in GDP growth of less than half a percent.
Growth in France has been consistently over 5% for those 30 years, until after the 1973 Oil Crisis.


Thanks to the capitalist system at the time (prior to cronyism), the U.S. was the wealthiest nation and helped you guys out.


Capitalists in USA at the time called the president and his policies "Socialist". FDR originally ran on a platform of smaller government and fiscal conservatism, but he later adopted important elements of the Socialist party platform for lack of other coherent proposals on how to deal with the Depression after having tried other approaches. His New Deal programs made several thousands of people employed under the government. He also created Social Security, which is called Socialist by many today. He was "accused" of being Socialist by the Republicans of the day.

Funnily enough, the American people kept reelecting him until he died in office.
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by DNS »

fwiw wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:35 am If this is actually meant to dismiss my comment (as it seems to be), then are you actually claiming that everything that happened in France between 1946 and 1975 was thanks to financial help from USA between 1948 and 1952?
No, I rarely write a post with the intention of dismissing someone's opinion or point they are making.

It was probably a confluence of factors and policies, but which the Marshall Plan was huge, in my opinion.
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi David,
DNS wrote: Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:21 am It still had trade; trade between farmers, merchants, private ownership, bankers, etc.

It certainly wasn't socialism nor communism.
I'm unclear what your definition of socialism is. Most Western countries (with the notable exception of the USA) have public health care (to a greater or lesser extent), and extensive social safety nets (more generous than in China, and most other Asian countries, where the social responsibility falls on families).
Some have public ownership of various utilities and facilities. If not, they have rules about profiteering or obstruction by utilities (of course, the USA has this too, famously dismantling AT&T in the 80s).

However they (we) still have economies based on private ownership, trade, bankers, etc, so I guess we are "capitalist".

So which countries would you describe as "socialist" or "communist"?

:heart:
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by SethRich »

Greetings,

Not to answer for DNS, but this is a technical definition for socialism...
Nove, Alec. 'Socialism'. New Palgrave Dictionary of Economics, Second Edition (2008). wrote:A society may be defined as socialist if the major part of the means of production of goods and services is in some sense socially owned and operated, by state, socialized or cooperative enterprises. The practical issues of socialism comprise the relationships between management and workforce within the enterprise, the interrelationships between production units (plan versus markets), and, if the state owns and operates any part of the economy, who controls it and how.
:candle:
"He goes to hell, the one who asserts what didn’t take place" (Ud 4.8)
"Let us neither be perpetrators nor victims!" (DN26)

"Transition to greatness" (Donald J. Trump)

:candle: "...his name was Seth Rich..."
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