Should Capitalism be outgrown?

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events, politics and economics.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:20 pm
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by mikenz66 »

SethRich wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:31 am Greetings,

Not to answer for DNS, but this is a technical definition for socialism...
...
Thanks, that definition would make it hard to find many socialist countries today...

:heart:
Mike
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 804
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:49 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by DNS »

mikenz66 wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:42 am
SethRich wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:31 am Greetings,

Not to answer for DNS, but this is a technical definition for socialism...
...
Thanks, that definition would make it hard to find many socialist countries today...

:heart:
Mike
Hi Mike,

Correct, that is because they all failed. They don't alleviate poverty, in fact they increase it.

The so-called current socialist/communist nations (China, Cuba, Vietnam) are all de facto capitalist nations with private ownership, businesses and even stock markets.
User avatar
fwiw
Posts: 1172
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:06 pm

Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw »

Would it then be fair to say it's only called socialism when it is perceived as failing?
... just my opinion, for what it's worth
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 804
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:49 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by DNS »

fwiw wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:06 am Would it then be fair to say it's only called socialism when it is perceived as failing?
No, that wouldn't be fair. Here's a list of former communist and socialist states:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_f ... ist_states

Not a single success; all failed. And they had massive poverty, killings, some with famine. Talk with just about anyone who lived during that period and they all say how bad it was. I've heard some say having a minimum wage job in a capitalist nation is far superior in quality of life and just about everything else than living in a socialist nation.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:20 pm
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by mikenz66 »

Thanks for the clarification, David. It seems you are using a fairly narrow definition of "socialism", which is fine. However, many would describe the welfare systems in Europe, the UK, and various other counties, such as mine, as "socialist" (e.g. some of the right-wing politicians in those countries... :)).

And even "capitalist" places, like the USA and Hong Kong, have often had significant government intervention. All those bridges and dams in 1930's America, and the significant support for aerospace and other areas via military spending. Which is why it's highly annoying when the US calls other countries anti-competitive, and demands that the rest of the world plays by US rules (which are designed to benefit US-origin multinational companies). Luckily for the rest of us, the US dominance is declining, and this is less of an issue.

:heart:
Mike
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 804
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:49 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by DNS »

There is a spectrum from far left to far right and most nations and economies are mixed-economies, being somewhere around the middle. As long as the means of production is privately owned, then it's still capitalism.

Correct, there are socialist-type practices, welfare, safety nets, etc and those are good, imo. It's still capitalism, but with a mixed-economy. The best performing ones, in my opinion, are those that are centrist or center-right.
User avatar
fwiw
Posts: 1172
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:06 pm

Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw »

mikenz66 wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:08 am many would describe the welfare systems in Europe, the UK, and various other counties, such as mine, as "socialist" (e.g. some of the right-wing politicians in those countries... :)).
Yes this is what I was referring to. I find it funny how every time I mention criticism of Capitalism and try to show that Socialism is not such a scare word, I get adamant reactions, as if the only alternative to the current dominant economic system was slums, concentration camps or genocide. I can't imagine thinking that the only alternative to destroying the planet (with current Capitalism) is making everyone poor and miserable. At the beginning of this thread, it took a long while before my interlocutor started understanding that all I wanted to discuss was worker coops and in general democratization of the workplace as an alternative to present-day Capitalism (absence of democracy at the workplace).

it's highly annoying when the US calls other countries anti-competitive, and demands that the rest of the world plays by US rules (which are designed to benefit US-origin multinational companies). Luckily for the rest of us, the US dominance is declining, and this is less of an issue.
:twothumbs:
... just my opinion, for what it's worth
User avatar
fwiw
Posts: 1172
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:06 pm

Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw »

DNS wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:41 pm Correct, there are socialist-type practices, welfare, safety nets, etc and those are good, imo. It's still capitalism, but with a mixed-economy. The best performing ones, in my opinion, are those that are centrist or center-right.
The problem I see with this characterization is that the entire political window is being pushed hard to the right these days (by oligarchs using the media they own). In France for example, we have a "centrist" president who has claimed on many occasions to be a lefty, but all he is doing is destroying welfare and safety nets for the poor, the unemployed, the elderly. And mutilating protesters (eyes, hands lost) as well as jailing people they don't like (temporarily) for no valid reason.
... just my opinion, for what it's worth
User avatar
Kim O'Hara
Posts: 1368
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:07 am
Location: Tropical Queensland, Australia

Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by Kim O'Hara »

DNS wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:41 pm There is a spectrum from far left to far right and most nations and economies are mixed-economies, being somewhere around the middle. As long as the means of production is privately owned, then it's still capitalism.
Your post would make more sense if you avoided the left-right dichotomy, David, like this:
DNS altered wrote:There is a spectrum from pure socialism to pure capitalism and most nations and economies are mixed-economies, being somewhere around the middle.
DNS wrote:As long as the means of production is privately owned, then it's still capitalism.
Correct, there are socialist-type practices, welfare, safety nets, etc and those are good, imo. It's still capitalism, but with a mixed-economy. The best performing ones, in my opinion, are those that are centrist or center-right.
Here you're sliding into the bias fwiw accused you of, i.e., saying that it's socialism when it fails, capitalism when it succeeds. It's much fairer and more accurate to say that almost every country is a mixed economy, although the mix varies across the spectrum we've just defined.
And then there's the definition of "best performing". What metric are you using? GDP? Social justice? GNH, as in Bhutan? Percentage of the population in prison? Median annual income? Health and education?

:popcorn:
Kim
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 804
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:49 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by DNS »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:06 am Here you're sliding into the bias fwiw accused you of, i.e., saying that it's socialism when it fails, capitalism when it succeeds.
Not at all, I don't know how you come to that conclusion. Look at the link above of former communist and socialist states. They all failed, they don't even exist any more. The USSR was not capitalist. Communist Ethiopia under the Derg were not capitalist and millions died in the Red reign of terror and unemployment and poverty was extremely widespread. Similar problems and failures with the rest on the list.
User avatar
SethRich
Posts: 738
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:57 pm

Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by SethRich »

Greetings,
DNS wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:26 am Similar problems and failures with the rest on the list.
It's a tough reality to be faced by post-Bolsheviks attempting to revive the red.

Even if rebadged as "progressive", I wonder how anything that's hard-left can ever be regarded as "progress" (rather than "regress") in light of this disastrous track record. (See also: Victims of Communism)

Or is there a socialist utopia that would actually work this time? I think the onus is on anyone who suggests that Capitalism should be outgrown, to provide a viable alternative that hasn't already failed and caused great misery and suffering. Interestingly, I remember giving myself this very same challenge over 20 years ago as I did my Bachelor of Economics... the best I could come up with was some variety of "market socialism", but this too struggled with the question of how existing industries could be socialized without complete disregard of existing property rights.

:popcorn:

:candle:
"He goes to hell, the one who asserts what didn’t take place" (Ud 4.8)
"Let us neither be perpetrators nor victims!" (DN26)

"Transition to greatness" (Donald J. Trump)

:candle: "...his name was Seth Rich..."
User avatar
fwiw
Posts: 1172
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:06 pm

Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw »

SethRich wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:38 am Or is there a socialist utopia that would actually work this time?
If you go back to the second post in this thread, right after i defined the topic, you will see I was trying to talk about democracy at the work place

But people keep bringing the topic back to the wonders of Capitalism and the ills of Socialism

That being said, I don't despair of getting a tiny corner of a point through one day. It did work on chownah a little, which is no small achievement
... just my opinion, for what it's worth
User avatar
Kim O'Hara
Posts: 1368
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:07 am
Location: Tropical Queensland, Australia

Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by Kim O'Hara »

DNS wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:26 am
Kim O'Hara wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:06 am Here you're sliding into the bias fwiw accused you of, i.e., saying that it's socialism when it fails, capitalism when it succeeds.
Not at all, I don't know how you come to that conclusion. ...
As I attempted to make clear, we don't have any capitalist countries or any socialist countries, only countries with mixed systems, and yet you were blandly declaring some of them (the ones you liked) "capitalist" and others (the ones you didn't, the ones which "failed", "socialist".
:thinking:
You didn't actually say so, but I suspect you believe that the countries which succeeded did so because of their capitalism and those that failed did so because of their socialism.

:popcorn:
Kim
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 804
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:49 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by DNS »

Okay, then as I thought, it's just a disagreement about what we consider to be which countries are capitalist and which are socialist. It has nothing to do with any bias from me. Yes, virtually all nations are mixed economies, but their means of production are privately owned, thus, capitalist. You can disagree of course, buy my opinion stands, that they are capitalist in a mixed economy system.

There were socialist nations where the means of production was controlled and owned by the state. They failed, so much so, that they no longer even exist. I consider that a failure. You are of course entitled to disagree.
User avatar
SethRich
Posts: 738
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:57 pm

Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by SethRich »

Greetings,

I agree with the points made above by DNS.

Also, as per the definition provided on the previous page, "a society may be defined as socialist if the major part of the means of production of goods and services is in some sense socially owned and operated, by state, socialized or cooperative enterprises."

In other words, >50% is socialist.... <50% is capitalist.

To suggest there's no such thing as socialist or capitalist countries because those figures aren't 100% or 0% respectively is a quibble unsupported by the definitions.

:candle:
"He goes to hell, the one who asserts what didn’t take place" (Ud 4.8)
"Let us neither be perpetrators nor victims!" (DN26)

"Transition to greatness" (Donald J. Trump)

:candle: "...his name was Seth Rich..."
User avatar
fwiw
Posts: 1172
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:06 pm

Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw »

DNS wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:42 am It has nothing to do with any bias from me.
I did notice that when capitalism fails you chalk it up to corruption and cronyism but when socialism fails, it's never because of corruption and cronyism but it's because socialism is rotten to its core.

My opinion is all systems have their downsides and are made worse by corruption and cronyism. I lived in what many in USA today would describe as a socialist state in my younger years. And I am very glad that I did. I never had the kind of ridiculous student debt Americans have to undergo. i never had to worry about pretty much anything despite being poorer than average compared to my middle-class peers.

SethRich wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:48 am >50% is socialist.... <50% is capitalist.
I suspect that by this definition Venezuela is a capitalist state
... just my opinion, for what it's worth
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 804
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:49 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by DNS »

fwiw wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:22 pm I did notice that when capitalism fails you chalk it up to corruption and cronyism but when socialism fails, it's never because of corruption and cronyism but it's because socialism is rotten to its core.
Again, not at all, I admitted there is corruption and cronyism on all sides. My point was the socialist nations all failed. Most of the capitalist ones did not and in fact virtually all nations are capitalist today, with some form, some level and degree of a mixed-economy, but still essentially capitalist.
User avatar
fwiw
Posts: 1172
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:06 pm

Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw »

DNS wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:26 pm Again, not at all, I admitted there is corruption and cronyism on all sides. My point was the socialist nations all failed. Most of the capitalist ones did not and in fact virtually all nations are capitalist today, with some form, some level and degree of a mixed-economy, but still essentially capitalist.
Well then we agree everyone or almost everyone is somewhat capitalist nowadays.

Now in the vast majority of capitalist enterprises, there is no democracy at the workplace. Is it a good thing? Or can we do better?

Alternatively, the debate could be about whether the result should still be labeled capitalism or not. But that's not a debate that interests me.
... just my opinion, for what it's worth
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 804
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:49 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by DNS »

fwiw wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:48 pm Now in the vast majority of capitalist enterprises, there is no democracy at the workplace. Is it a good thing? Or can we do better?
That is because in a private, non-public, not traded on stock market type company, it is typically an individual capitalist who bought or started the business, who put up the capital, who invested thousands, sometimes millions of his/her own funds. And so naturally from that he/she would have full say in all business matters, although placed in check by the market and government regulations. For example, he wouldn't be able to price gouge due to markets and sometimes regulations as his competitors would put him out business with better pricing.

When he/she passes away, it typically gets passed to his children. So it actually sounds and operates more like monarchy than democracy. :tongue:

Is that a good or bad thing? I don't know for sure, I suppose if one didn't believe in or accept rebirth, it would be especially hard to accept as Prince WIlliam and Prince Harry would have no right to be royals in the same way the children of multi-million dollar corporations would have no right to take over the company without earning and competing for the position. For those that do accept rebirth, it might be easier to justify with karma?

However, in the spirit of capitalism and the free-market, I have no issue or problem with people setting up co-ops and other forms of worker-owned companies and competing in the market. And who knows? if that format works and out-competes the private monarchy systems, then I say, so be it.
User avatar
fwiw
Posts: 1172
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:06 pm

Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw »

DNS wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:16 pm I suppose if one didn't believe in or accept rebirth, it would be especially hard to accept as Prince WIlliam and Prince Harry would have no right to be royals in the same way the children of multi-million dollar corporations would have no right to take over the company without earning and competing for the position. For those that do accept rebirth, it might be easier to justify with karma?
It is often a talking point that critics of the rich are rooted in envy.

Let me quote the Buddha:
"That's the way it is, great king! That's the way it is! Few are those people in the world who, when acquiring lavish wealth, don't become intoxicated & heedless, don't become greedy for sensual pleasures, and don't mistreat other beings. Many more are those who, when acquiring lavish wealth, become intoxicated & heedless, become greedy for sensual pleasures, and mistreat other beings."
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn ... .than.html
The problem, as I see it, is that the (mega)rich have a far greater potential to harm their fellow beings, and for that reason should be kept in check a lot more than the common people.

But Capitalism essentially presents them as the gods of the economy that create jobs to whom everyone should kowtow in the hopes that some of their wealth will trickle down on us.
... just my opinion, for what it's worth
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], lyndon taylor, Presto Kensho and 39 guests