kiva.org

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Pseudobabble
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Re: kiva.org

Post by Pseudobabble » Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:34 pm

fwiw wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:33 pm

While I'm at it, I would also recommend digging Yanis Varoufakis





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DNS
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Re: kiva.org

Post by DNS » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:28 pm

The interest rates on some of the field partners are high, but not all of them. The rates are similar to what credit card companies charge, not that this makes it right, but it shows they are in the range of other borrowers in most nations. Additionally when one provides a kiva loan, one can choose which field partners to use. See this link and click 'show' for the yields of some of the field partners:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiva_(org ... on)#Issues

I imagine some articles bashing kiva probably do so because they are biased against the capitalist system that kiva uses, allowing people to open a business, become self-sufficient and come out poverty, which goes against their socialist ideologies.

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fwiw
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Re: kiva.org

Post by fwiw » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:56 pm

DNS wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:28 pm
I imagine some articles bashing kiva probably do so because they are biased against the capitalist system that kiva uses, allowing people to open a business, become self-sufficient and come out poverty, which goes against their socialist ideologies.
Is this an attempt to explain away concerns about the way kiva loans work as ideological hackery from people who allegedly hate seeing a successful business enterprise?
... in my opinion (<- meaning unless one is talking about something one has been a direct witness of, every single thing anyone ever says is no more than an opinion. Also, don't ask me to do your research for you)

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Re: kiva.org

Post by DNS » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:17 pm

fwiw wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:56 pm
DNS wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:28 pm
I imagine some articles bashing kiva probably do so because they are biased against the capitalist system that kiva uses, allowing people to open a business, become self-sufficient and come out poverty, which goes against their socialist ideologies.
Is this an attempt to explain away concerns about the way kiva loans work as ideological hackery from people who allegedly hate seeing a successful business enterprise?
:D Nah, it's just the facts.

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fwiw
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Re: kiva.org

Post by fwiw » Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:39 am

DNS wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:17 pm
:D Nah, it's just the facts.
I guess what you mean is that there exists at least one person in the world for whom it is the case, not that it is for example my case or the case for the majority of people showing such concern. Am I right? Otherwise it would be an appeal to motive fallacy.
Appeal to motive is a pattern of argument which consists in challenging a thesis by calling into question the motives of its proposer. It can be considered as a special case of the ad hominem circumstantial argument. As such, this type of argument may be an informal fallacy.

A common feature of appeals to motive is that only the possibility of a motive (however small) is shown, without showing the motive actually existed or, if the motive did exist, that the motive played a role in forming the argument and its conclusion. Indeed, it is often assumed that the mere possibility of motive is evidence enough.
... in my opinion (<- meaning unless one is talking about something one has been a direct witness of, every single thing anyone ever says is no more than an opinion. Also, don't ask me to do your research for you)

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Re: kiva.org

Post by DNS » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:55 am

As your quoted text shows, it "may be" a fallacy when evidence is not shown whereas I have shown the statistics and how the interest rates, while high, are not that out of line among many field partners.

On a somewhat related matter to the topic (of economics), why is your avatar a photo of Ayn Rand? It doesn't appear you are an Ayn Rand style libertarian, are you? (just curious)

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fwiw
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Re: kiva.org

Post by fwiw » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:36 am

DNS wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:55 am
As your quoted text shows, it "may be" a fallacy when evidence is not shown whereas I have shown the statistics and how the interest rates, while high, are not that out of line among many field partners.
Ok. This appears to be a qui pro quo.

I am talking about your remark questioning the motives of people who see kiva with a critical eye, which I have clearly quoted in my above post:
DNS wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:28 pm
I imagine some articles bashing kiva probably do so because they are biased against the capitalist system that kiva uses, allowing people to open a business, become self-sufficient and come out poverty, which goes against their socialist ideologies.
But you answer my remark about the appeal to motive fallacy as if I had referrenced your other remark as to why kiva is fine for you whatever evidence has been shown that might indicate otherwise:
DNS wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:28 pm
The interest rates on some of the field partners are high, but not all of them. The rates are similar to what credit card companies charge, not that this makes it right, but it shows they are in the range of other borrowers in most nations. Additionally when one provides a kiva loan, one can choose which field partners to use. See this link and click 'show' for the yields of some of the field partners:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiva_(org ... on)#Issues
This conversation will be much better if we don't mischaracterize each other's arguments. Notice that I ask for clarification of your position and try to steelman it.

DNS wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:28 pm
On a somewhat related matter to the topic (of economics), why is your avatar a photo of Ayn Rand? It doesn't appear you are an Ayn Rand style libertarian, are you? (just curious)
I think as a prominent figure of libertarianism she is a good example of what is fundamentally wrong with that ideology in that it runs directly against the Dhamma. I think for example of her book The virtue of selfishness or this video:

Ayn rand - Why altruism is evil



From the comments below:
I am not a bandage for your wounds.

altruism is for the masochistic types.

altruism is the opposite of dignity.
... in my opinion (<- meaning unless one is talking about something one has been a direct witness of, every single thing anyone ever says is no more than an opinion. Also, don't ask me to do your research for you)

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DNS
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Re: kiva.org

Post by DNS » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:48 am

fwiw wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:36 am
I think as a prominent figure of libertarianism she is a good example of what is fundamentally wrong with that ideology in that it runs directly against the Dhamma. I think for example of her book The virtue of selfishness or this video:

Ayn rand - Why altruism is evil
So why did you choose her for your avatar photo? Just curious, nothing wrong with using that photo, but curious why you chose that if you don't like her or her philosophy.

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fwiw
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Re: kiva.org

Post by fwiw » Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:29 am

DNS wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:48 am
So why did you choose her for your avatar photo? Just curious, nothing wrong with using that photo, but curious why you chose that if you don't like her or her philosophy.
A way to raise awareness
... in my opinion (<- meaning unless one is talking about something one has been a direct witness of, every single thing anyone ever says is no more than an opinion. Also, don't ask me to do your research for you)

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: kiva.org

Post by Kim O'Hara » Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:57 am

This is not about kiva as such but about the broader programme of "empowering women in the developing world".
Are aid programs aimed at empowering women doing more harm than good?

... In 2008, New York Times bestseller Half the Sky argued that women in the Global South can turn oppression into opportunity by entering the labour market and becoming "engines of economic growth".

But American-based academic Serene J Khadar, who is this year's Alan Saunders lecturer, says such logic is deeply flawed.

"Calling policies like giving goats and sewing machines 'empowerment' makes them seem not just like they reduce poverty, but like they reduce injustice," she told audiences at the Australasian Association of Philosophy conference this week.

"Many policies … fail to see that empowerment is supposed to act on oppression.
"A woman can have adequate food and health while still having less access to it than men, and without seeing any changes in her educational opportunities, her vulnerability to domestic abuse, her level of political voice in her society."

Individually beneficial, collectively detrimental?

Dr Khadar concedes that increased incomes can improve livelihoods on an individual scale — although, the evidence is mixed — but warns employment-based strategies ignore the underlying problem: patriarchal power structures and attitudes towards women.

She believes this individual-over-the-collective approach can reinforce — even worsen — the oppression of women in the Global South. ...
:reading: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-15/w ... ng/9981396
tl;dr - it's complicated.

It's not necessarily a reason to abandon Kiva but may shift our priorities somewhat.

:namaste:
Kim

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fwiw
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Re: kiva.org

Post by fwiw » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:41 am

For those who are interested in kiva-style loans, I have a friend who could use your help. It's on the island of Siquijor in the Philippines. Her partner passed away and she is now left with that big house that she is trying to maintain, but it is not easy and despair tends to set in. What she needs is an investment that would allow her to build a few rooms and rent them. She will then be able to pay back slowly. The idea here is to try and work on the time frame that is most suitable to the person in need and above all get past the exploitative middlemen. If you are interested, I can send you details in private message.
... in my opinion (<- meaning unless one is talking about something one has been a direct witness of, every single thing anyone ever says is no more than an opinion. Also, don't ask me to do your research for you)

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: kiva.org

Post by Kim O'Hara » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:18 am

On my first visit to kiva.org for a few months I noticed a whole lot of funding requests like this one:
Screen Shot Kiva.png
Screen Shot Kiva.png (144.83 KiB) Viewed 1527 times

I chose not to support any of them because of ethical implications: hybrid seeds are sterile so they lock farmers into dependence on the seed suppliers (think Monsanto), and many of them lack resistance to common pests so they lock farmers into dependence on pesticides as well ... and poison the environment.

On previous visits I have noticed similar groups of requests - from Cambodians for water filters, for instance - and I am somewhat concerned that llocal lenders ("field partners") are gaming the system, encouraging clients to borrow for not-so-compelling reasons.

:thinking:
Kim

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fwiw
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Re: kiva.org

Post by fwiw » Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:50 am

Seriously, I don't know why anyone would keep using kiva
... in my opinion (<- meaning unless one is talking about something one has been a direct witness of, every single thing anyone ever says is no more than an opinion. Also, don't ask me to do your research for you)

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