LGBT Issues: A Moderate Approach

Applying the Dharma to social justice issues – race, religion, sexuality and identity
NA Buddhist
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Re: LGBT Issues: A Moderate Approach

Post by NA Buddhist »

Presto Kensho -- don't confuse surgery with other forms of transitional medicine.

There are a number of sensitive interviews about gender, sexuality and transition at:
https: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdtxUcvkJWA&lis ... 62rgJIzvt9

I'd recommend starting with 2 interviews which show the fragmented thinking and ethics that exists between transsexual people.

Buck Angel

https: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lly1prUzksI Children's Rights, Trans Realities | with Scott Newgent

https: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7FI6_OKrzc Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria: A Primer | with Lisa Littman and Sasha Ayad

Two recent long form interviews:
http://podcasts.joerogan.net/podcasts/dr-debra-soh-2 Lots about the messy politics and sociology of gender research
http://podcasts.joerogan.net/podcasts/abigail-shrier
Last edited by NA Buddhist on Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Presto Kensho
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Re: LGBT Issues: A Moderate Approach

Post by Presto Kensho »

NA Buddhist wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:33 am Presto Kensho -- don't confuse surgery with other forms of transitional medicine.
Even if children are only given things like hormone blockers, doesn't that cause irreversible changes in the human body?
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KathyLauren
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Re: LGBT Issues: A Moderate Approach

Post by KathyLauren »

Presto Kensho wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:54 am Even if children are only given things like hormone blockers, doesn't that cause irreversible changes in the human body?
Trans children are given puberty blockers to prevent irreversible changes to their bodies, in order to preserve their ability to make a choice when they are old enough to do so. Denying them blockers causes the very thing you claim to be preventing.

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Kathy
DeadCircuits
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Re: LGBT Issues: A Moderate Approach

Post by DeadCircuits »

KathyLauren wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:59 am Trans children are given puberty blockers to prevent irreversible changes to their bodies, in order to preserve their ability to make a choice when they are old enough to do so. Denying them blockers causes the very thing you claim to be preventing.

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Kathy
I think this notion of preserving a child's right to make a choice isn't necessarily a good thing.

I didn't choose to be born where I was born. I didn't choose my siblings, my gender, my ethnicity. I wish I was taller. I wish I could grow a better beard... Life is full of things that you have no choice in that you have to accept.

Also if a child isn't in a position to choose whether they want to go through puberty as their biological sex would determine, how can they possibly be in a position to choose whether or not they take a life altering treatment to prevent puberty? If they lack the maturity to make one decision then surely that applies to the other?

I don't know whether this outlook applies to you personally, but as an additional point, it baffles me that so many of the 'biological sex doesn't exist' crowd think you need to give people hormones and surgery to become the sex that they identify with.

Again I think that people ought to be able to express themselves in whichever way they choose, and as adults if that means surgery then that's fine with me. But up untill that point (and beyond) a large part of life is dealing with things that you don't get to decide...

Edit: also who's to say that puberty is not a requisite for developing the capacity to make adult decisions? As I understand it the brain stops development at some point in your mid twenties, I don't think it is unreasonable to stipulate that puberty plays a role in said development.
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KathyLauren
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Re: LGBT Issues: A Moderate Approach

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DeadCircuits wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:07 am Also if a child isn't in a position to choose whether they want to go through puberty as their biological sex would determine, how can they possibly be in a position to choose whether or not they take a life altering treatment to prevent puberty? If they lack the maturity to make one decision then surely that applies to the other?
Simple. One option is reversible; the other isn't. So if there is any question about the kid's identity, why not give them the reversible option? Puberty is not prevented, merely delayed. If they change their mind, stop the blockers, and they will experience their birth-sex puberty. If they don't change their minds, they experience their acquired-sex puberty via prescribed hormones.

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DeadCircuits
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Re: LGBT Issues: A Moderate Approach

Post by DeadCircuits »

KathyLauren wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:01 am
DeadCircuits wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:07 am Also if a child isn't in a position to choose whether they want to go through puberty as their biological sex would determine, how can they possibly be in a position to choose whether or not they take a life altering treatment to prevent puberty? If they lack the maturity to make one decision then surely that applies to the other?
Simple. One option is reversible; the other isn't. So if there is any question about the kid's identity, why not give them the reversible option? Puberty is not prevented, merely delayed. If they change their mind, stop the blockers, and they will experience their birth-sex puberty. If they don't change their minds, they experience their acquired-sex puberty via prescribed hormones.

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Kathy
Reversible doesn't necessarily mean without harm. I don't see how we can say that pumping a child full of hormones to prevent its natural development is without risk.

Hormones play a crucial role in our bodies and I don't know that artificially altering their balance before the body is fully developed can be said to be harmless. The body is very complex and much of it we don't fully understand.

Maybe the brain needs the sex hormones as it continues to develop into maturity, and depriving it of that fundamentally alters it's development. I don't think we should be experimenting on kids just because they are having identity issues.
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KathyLauren
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Re: LGBT Issues: A Moderate Approach

Post by KathyLauren »

DeadCircuits wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:28 am Reversible doesn't necessarily mean without harm. I don't see how we can say that pumping a child full of hormones to prevent its natural development is without risk.

Hormones play a crucial role in our bodies and I don't know that artificially altering their balance before the body is fully developed can be said to be harmless. The body is very complex and much of it we don't fully understand.

Maybe the brain needs the sex hormones as it continues to develop into maturity, and depriving it of that fundamentally alters it's development. I don't think we should be experimenting on kids just because they are having identity issues.
That's a hell of a lot of maybes. You are basically admitting that you don't know jack shit about the subject. Maybe you should be leaving medical decisions to doctors who actually know about this stuff.

What about the long-term harm to the kid growing up with the effects of the wrong puberty because misguided adults who actually have no stake in the issue would not let them take blockers? Do you have any idea the harm that does? Of course not. You don't have a clue. Nothing is without risk. Life is a matter of balancing risks and choosing the course of least harm. And you don't know what that is.

Which is why we need to keep irresponsible amateurs out of such decision making and leave it to the people who do know: the child, their parents, and their doctors.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
DeadCircuits
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Re: LGBT Issues: A Moderate Approach

Post by DeadCircuits »

KathyLauren wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:07 pm That's a hell of a lot of maybes. You are basically admitting that you don't know jack shit about the subject. Maybe you should be leaving medical decisions to doctors who actually know about this stuff.

What about the long-term harm to the kid growing up with the effects of the wrong puberty because misguided adults who actually have no stake in the issue would not let them take blockers? Do you have any idea the harm that does? Of course not. You don't have a clue. Nothing is without risk. Life is a matter of balancing risks and choosing the course of least harm. And you don't know what that is.

Which is why we need to keep irresponsible amateurs out of such decision making and leave it to the people who do know: the child, their parents, and their doctors.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
I'm not at all convinced that the doctors know about this stuff. Have there been any studies that look at the long term affects of having been given puberty blockers? Or the affects of having been given them only to reverse the decision? It's perfectly reasonable to postulate that there might be risks that are as yet unforeseen given that I don't think the treatment has existed for long enough to see the effects over time. Speculating on paper that they are harmless is one thing, but who knows maybe the treatment gives you brain tumours in your 40's for some completely unforeseen reason. My point is, these treatments haven't existed for long enough, nor have they been studied in depth enough to determine whether or not they should be given to a child.

Given that it is something that only affects a fraction of the population, and given how new, and underdeveloped the treatment is in terms of studies on its affects, its perfectly reasonable to express caution, especially when the decisions are being made by, or for children.
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Re: LGBT Issues: A Moderate Approach

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DeadCircuits wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:35 pm I'm not at all convinced that the doctors know about this stuff. Have there been any studies that look at the long term affects of having been given puberty blockers? Or the affects of having been given them only to reverse the decision? It's perfectly reasonable to postulate that there might be risks that are as yet unforeseen given that I don't think the treatment has existed for long enough to see the effects over time. Speculating on paper that they are harmless is one thing, but who knows maybe the treatment gives you brain tumours in your 40's for some completely unforeseen reason. My point is, these treatments haven't existed for long enough, nor have they been studied in depth enough to determine whether or not they should be given to a child.

Given that it is something that only affects a fraction of the population, and given how new, and underdeveloped the treatment is in terms of studies on its affects, its perfectly reasonable to express caution, especially when the decisions are being made by, or for children.
Hormone blocking treatments have been around for a long time. Yes, they have been studied. Don't assume, just because YOU know nothing about them, that the doctors are equally in the dark.

You pretend to do a risk assessment, when in fact, you know nothing about the risks on either side. Yet you and the OP pretend that that is a moderate position. It is not. You are extremists.

You are arguing an ideological point of view, based on nothing at all, for the purposes of propaganda.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
DeadCircuits
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Re: LGBT Issues: A Moderate Approach

Post by DeadCircuits »

KathyLauren wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:24 pm Hormone blocking treatments have been around for a long time. Yes, they have been studied. Don't assume, just because YOU know nothing about them, that the doctors are equally in the dark.

You pretend to do a risk assessment, when in fact, you know nothing about the risks on either side. Yet you and the OP pretend that that is a moderate position. It is not. You are extremists.

You are arguing an ideological point of view, based on nothing at all, for the purposes of propaganda.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
I have actually looked into it and most of the studies I can see appear to have been conducted in the last decade. Certainly not in any number or over any great length of time to determine with certainty that they are risk free. I'd be interested to see the oldest study you can find for puberty blockers being used on adolescents.

I'm not trying to push any ideology here. I just think that people shouldn't be so quick to administer potentially harmful, and definitely life altering hormones to children. Given the paucity of studies it is essentially playing guinea pigs with adolescents.

I'm not saying we should ignore gender dysphoria, but rather that perhaps counselling, therapy, along with reducing the social stigma that leads to bullying etc. Would be preferable to experimenting on young people given that we only have a handful of studies that aren't really adequate to ascertain whether or not it's safe. Sure the drugs used have been tested as prostate cancer treatment, but we can't really say that giving something to someone who has already gone through puberty, will have the same effect as preventing puberty in an adolescent.

Puberty is a time when the brain is undergoing important development, it's not yet clear how puberty blockers might interrupt this, perhaps irrevocably. It's not beyond reason to advocate for the exercise of caution here.
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Re: LGBT Issues: A Moderate Approach

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DeadCircuits wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:20 pm I have actually looked into it and most of the studies I can see appear to have been conducted in the last decade. Certainly not in any number or over any great length of time to determine with certainty that they are risk free. I'd be interested to see the oldest study you can find for puberty blockers being used on adolescents.

I'm not trying to push any ideology here. I just think that people shouldn't be so quick to administer potentially harmful, and definitely life altering hormones to children. Given the paucity of studies it is essentially playing guinea pigs with adolescents.

I'm not saying we should ignore gender dysphoria, but rather that perhaps counselling, therapy, along with reducing the social stigma that leads to bullying etc. Would be preferable to experimenting on young people given that we only have a handful of studies that aren't really adequate to ascertain whether or not it's safe. Sure the drugs used have been tested as prostate cancer treatment, but we can't really say that giving something to someone who has already gone through puberty, will have the same effect as preventing puberty in an adolescent.

Puberty is a time when the brain is undergoing important development, it's not yet clear how puberty blockers might interrupt this, perhaps irrevocably. It's not beyond reason to advocate for the exercise of caution here.
As I said, you are only pretending to be cautious. You are claiming that the potential that there might be harm from puberty blockers outweighs any harm from not using them. The structure of that claim implies a balance that you have carefully considered. Yet you show no awareness of the other half of the balance. It is like saying that a one-pound weight is more than. More than what? You have obviously failed to even consider the other side of the balance.

Refusing to allow a transgender child to transition does real harm. Forcing them to endure puberty before they are allowed to transition does real, tangible, and expensive harm. You dismiss that possibility because it doesn't suit your political narrative. So until you demonstrate some awareness of that reality, I stand by my assessment that you are a propagandist pushing a political ideology.

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Re: LGBT Issues: A Moderate Approach

Post by Presto Kensho »

KathyLauren wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:59 am
Presto Kensho wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:54 am Even if children are only given things like hormone blockers, doesn't that cause irreversible changes in the human body?
Trans children are given puberty blockers to prevent irreversible changes to their bodies, in order to preserve their ability to make a choice when they are old enough to do so. Denying them blockers causes the very thing you claim to be preventing.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
Please tell me, are you a radical leftist on most issues or just when it comes to LGBT issues? Also, what is your opinion of LGBT conservatives?

In addition to hormone blockers, underage trans children are also being given hormones for the sex to which they identify. Please forgive me if I am mistaken about this.
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Re: LGBT Issues: A Moderate Approach

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Presto Kensho wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:39 am Please tell me, are you a radical leftist on most issues or just when it comes to LGBT issues? Also, what is your opinion of LGBT conservatives?

In addition to hormone blockers, underage trans children are also being given hormones for the sex to which they identify. Please forgive me if I am mistaken about this.
I am not a "radical leftist" at all.

There are specific ages when hormones may be prescribed, and specific requirements to be met before that can happen.

Let's talk about your radical rightist scare tactics. Your use of the vague term "underage" is intended to make people think that hormones are being prescribed to 6- and 7-year-olds. That doesn't happen. Your use of the word "given" is intended to make people think that hormones are doled out randomly by unqualified people with no checks or balances. They are prescribed by doctors, after multi-disciplinary consultations with specific requirements.

Asking to be forgiven "if" you are wrong is an admission that you know you are wrong.

Get informed, and tell the truth.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
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Re: LGBT Issues: A Moderate Approach

Post by Presto Kensho »

Honestly, I do not see how my opinions on LGBT issues are radically right-wing, since they were relatively recently the mainstream of the Democratic Party.
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Re: LGBT Issues: A Moderate Approach

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How about this understanding?
1) Little is known about the long-term side effects of hormone or puberty blockers in children with gender dysphoria.

2) Many advise that the use of puberty blockers is a physically reversible treatment if stopped.

3) It is not known what the psychological effects of the use of puberty blockers may be.

4) It's also not known whether hormone blockers affect the development of the teenage brain or children's bones. Side effects may also include hot flushes, fatigue and mood alterations.
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Re: LGBT Issues: A Moderate Approach

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Presto Kensho wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:49 am Honestly, I do not see how my opinions on LGBT issues are radically right-wing, since they were relatively recently the mainstream of the Democratic Party.
a. The Democratic party is right-wing by any objective (i.e. non-US) standards.
b. This isn't about politics.
c. You have proven yourself to be a troll. No one cares about trolls' opinions.


NA Buddhist wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:15 am How about this understanding?
1) Little is known about the long-term side effects of hormone or puberty blockers in children with gender dysphoria.

2) Many advise that the use of puberty blockers is a physically reversible treatment if stopped.

3) It is not known what the psychological effects of the use of puberty blockers may be.

4) It's also not known whether hormone blockers affect the development of the teenage brain or children's bones. Side effects may also include hot flushes, fatigue and mood alterations.
Source??

No medication is risk-free. Even drinking a glass of water has some risk. What I see in the discussion of puberty blockers is a lot of unsubstantiated teeth-gnashing about the (unproven, possible) harm they may cause, and no consideration at all given to the harm of not taking them. Medications are prescribed to prevent or cure harmful conditions, and this is no exception.

The possible, unproven, potential harm alleged for puberty blockers should be evaluated in tandem with the the known, documented, potentially lethal harm of not using them.

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Re: LGBT Issues: A Moderate Approach

Post by NA Buddhist »

Presto Kensho wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:39 am Please tell me, are you a radical leftist on most issues or just when it comes to LGBT issues? ...
V I think you can do better and thus raise the level of discourse.

KathyLauren wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:37 pm Asking to be forgiven "if" you are wrong is an admission that you know you are wrong.

Get informed, and tell the truth.
KathyLauren - given the logic of the first sentence I think the advise of the second sentence equally applies to you.

"Asking to be forgiven "if" you are wrong is an admission that you know you are wrong"
-- might appear to work if you assume the worst motives of others. That is not the only time your statements have tortured logic in this thread.

You thinking may be unduly influenced by the belief that there is:
KathyLauren wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:37 pm "a lot of unsubstantiated teeth-gnashing about the (unproven, possible) harm they may cause, and no consideration at all given to the harm of not taking them.
"No consideration at all". At all? That's a gross exaggeration IMO and doesn't reflect what I read and hear. But that belief, however misguided, does helps to explain and make sense of the things you have written in this thread.

* * *


Big irony that you ask of sources from me when you offer none for such bold assertions and starkly drawn contrasts.

But, risking a cheap shot of my own, those who want to get informed, might want to look at the UK's National Health Service page:
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dy ... treatment/

Note the NHS recommends a serious, multi-stage process of evaluation before starting puberty blockers.

Patients deserve the best informed consent possible. A theme that comes up again and again in the interviews (see links in a early post) is that some patients often aren't getting high quality information.

Presto Kensho - take note: My take is that I think your posts have tended to miss the more subtle and nuanced aspects. Kathy does point in a general direction of views that should be considered.
Last edited by NA Buddhist on Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: LGBT Issues: A Moderate Approach

Post by NA Buddhist »

Galileo's Middle Finger: Heretics, Activists, and One Scholar's Search for Justice
A worthwhile read on how topics of social interest -- and of attachment or aversion -- become politicized.
“Smart, delightful . . . a splendidly entertaining education in ethics, activism, and science.” —The New York Times Book Review (Editor’s Choice)
Galileo’s Middle Finger is one American’s eye-opening story of life in the trenches of scientific controversy. For two decades, historian Alice Dreger has led a life of extraordinary engagement, combining activist service to victims of unethical medical research with defense of scientists whose work has outraged identity politics activists. With spirit and wit, Dreger offers in Galileo’s Middle Finger an unforgettable vision of the importance of rigorous truth seeking in today’s America, where both the free press and free scholarly inquiry struggle under dire economic and political threats.

This illuminating chronicle begins with Dreger’s own research into the treatment of people born intersex (once called hermaphrodites). Realization of the shocking surgical and ethical abuses conducted in the name of “normalizing” intersex children’s gender identities moved Dreger to become an internationally recognized patient rights activist. But even as the intersex rights movement succeeded, Dreger began to realize how some fellow progressive activists were employing lies and personal attacks to silence scientists whose data revealed uncomfortable truths about humans. In researching one such case, Dreger suddenly became the target of just these kinds of attacks.

Troubled, she decided to try to understand more—to travel the country to ferret out the truth behind various controversies, to obtain a global view of the nature and costs of these battles. Galileo’s Middle Finger describes Dreger’s long and harrowing journeys between the two camps for which she felt equal empathy: social justice activists determined to win and researchers determined to put hard truths before comfort. Ultimately what emerges is a lesson about the intertwining of justice and of truth—and a lesson of the importance of responsible scholars and journalists to our fragile democracy.
--
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KathyLauren
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Re: LGBT Issues: A Moderate Approach

Post by KathyLauren »

NA Buddhist wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:22 am
KathyLauren wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:37 pm "a lot of unsubstantiated teeth-gnashing about the (unproven, possible) harm they may cause, and no consideration at all given to the harm of not taking them.
"No consideration at all". At all? That's a gross exaggeration IMO and doesn't reflect what I read and hear.
Then you haven't been following this thread, because it does reflect the reality of Presto's position in the thread. It also reflects the stated position of others in similar discussions elsewhere.

If you are aware of the harm of not prescribing puberty blockers, you should include that in the discussion. Focusing only on one side of the argument to the total exclusion of the opposing side is not an honest discussion. That has been my position all along.

Om mani padme hum
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Re: LGBT Issues: A Moderate Approach

Post by NA Buddhist »

KathyLauren wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:01 am
NA Buddhist wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:22 am
KathyLauren wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:37 pm "a lot of unsubstantiated teeth-gnashing about the (unproven, possible) harm they may cause, and no consideration at all given to the harm of not taking them.
"No consideration at all". At all? That's a gross exaggeration IMO and doesn't reflect what I read and hear.
Then you haven't been following this thread, because it does reflect the reality of Presto's position in the thread. It also reflects the stated position of others in similar discussions elsewhere.
Point taken. We both were a bit vauge about who were speaking of and the context thereof. You with the "stated position of others in similar discussions elsewhere" and me with "what I read and hear".
I invite Presto can speak to Presto's position.
KathyLauren wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:01 am If you are aware of the harm of not prescribing puberty blockers, you should include that in the discussion. Focusing only on one side of the argument to the total exclusion of the opposing side is not an honest discussion. That has been my position all along.
My best understanding is that there are potential risks with puberty blockers in both directions. To body and mind and psychology.
For one, as I read the NHS webpage that seems to be the NHS's position too. Usually phrases like "It is not known" indicates the opinion that there is some reasonable grounds for concern.

---

But lets turn to the question about honest discussions.

IMO your focus has been nearly exclusively on advocating one viewpoint. And it seems to me that many of your statements have largely focused "on one side of the argument to the ... exclusion of the opposing side". It seems like your arguments really minimize one side and maximize the other. In the process sometimes to the point of torturing logic. Tricky logic and rhetoric is not my idea of a "honest discussion". What caches my eye is tricky rhetoric followed by calls to "honest discussion".

Nothing wrong with being an advocate rather than a honest broker but with the way you have conducted this discussion so far I don't see how its going to be an "honest discussion" unless a better informed opposing advocate steps up to debate you. That's how adversarial systems and debates inform the public.

To be honest I think Presto Kensho needs to do more homework before taking on a determined advocate.

My main interest is in the nature of honest discussions. Also politicized social and science issues. Less so the particulars of different forms and stages of transitional therapy and medicine.
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