Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Applying the Dharma to social justice issues – race, religion, sexuality and identity
Dan74
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by Dan74 »

I watched the interview and was happy to see that the interviewer was very switched on and certainly didn't let the professor off the hook very lightly.

As regards Peterson in general, having read a fair bit about the transgender amendment and his attendant fear-mongering, I am 100% with Kathy on this one - he was being totally disingenuous. For instance, there was an unanimous view of his legal colleagues that the amendment would not criminalise him using the wrong pronoun, as he had claimed. What he did there was, in my opinion, a blight on his integrity. Of course, as Bundokji says, this doesn't mean he is wrong on everything.

As regards this interview, Peterson essentially makes one point - that make-up and specific clothing can add to a sexual atmosphere in the workplace. Not really so revolutionary I think. And he is duly careful not to excuse harassment on that basis. Rather he is promoting a conversation about how our appearance affects others. Recently there's been a pushback on 'manspreading'. This belongs to the same class, perhaps. So basically a conversation about the way we dress may also something worthwhile. But unfortunately in the current polarised climate it is likely to be taken as blaming the victims and politically this is precisely what his base as well as his most vociferous detractors will take it for. And maybe this is indeed his intent. Could he be trolling the zeitgeist? Given his ruthless exploitation of the trans amendment, I think it's very likely indeed.
Bundokji
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by Bundokji »

'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.
Dan74
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by Dan74 »

I sad sad story, which I am led to believe is only too common.

As a student, over 20 years ago, I lived in a large shared flat right next to the University and we did have many parties and drinking. Not drugs (except marijuana, occasionally) and happy to say I don't know of any rapes. It was very mellow by comparison, I guess. The most outrageous thing as I recall is when we found two party guests making out on top of our washing machine. But they were both quite conscious and consenting.

I guess a lot depends on the circles one mixes in. But yes, I completely agree with the author that such behaviour is criminal and something young women are much more aware of these days I believe, which is a good thing. I think prosecutions will also become more common, but of course in the absence of witnesses, which is the norm, it is a very difficult matter. of course rape is massively underreported and thousands like the bastard from the article, get away with it. But there is also another side. Unlike every other crime where the standard of proof is beyond reasonable doubt, with rape it is of necessity lower. That cannot help but result in some innocent people getting convicted.
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by chownah »

She said: "I don't wear this dress to attract attention to my breasts....I wear it to protect myself from the elements. There is certainly no message here."
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http://www.firstandmonday.com/national-cleavage-day/
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by DNS »

Clothing styles vary widely based on location, culture, weather; for example:

Aboriginal women often wear nothing on the top and this is not seen in any way as trying to look sexy.
In the West, some men pay to see women wearing nothing on the top.

In India, women often dress in what they see as being conservative fashion by wearing pants under their dress so as not to show their legs, but wear mid-rift tops which show their belly-buttons.
In the West, showing your belly-button is seen as sexy and some wear piercing to highlight the belly-button.

This weather woman in California was asked to "cover up" on the air:



Whereas in Las Vegas women on the news and many other women show quite a bit of cleavage (much more than the woman in the video above) that it is seen as normal and no one even takes a second look, since almost everyone is wearing opened-up tops.
Bundokji
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by Bundokji »

Dan74 wrote: Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:37 am I guess a lot depends on the circles one mixes in. But yes, I completely agree with the author that such behaviour is criminal and something young women are much more aware of these days I believe, which is a good thing. I think prosecutions will also become more common, but of course in the absence of witnesses, which is the norm, it is a very difficult matter. of course rape is massively underreported and thousands like the bastard from the article, get away with it. But there is also another side. Unlike every other crime where the standard of proof is beyond reasonable doubt, with rape it is of necessity lower. That cannot help but result in some innocent people getting convicted.
I personally find the following parts of her story worth contemplating:
I knew what I was supposed to do – tell people, call the police – but I was scared that I would be judged for getting too drunk, wearing an almost see-through dress, or taking illegal drugs. They would ask how I ended up lying on the ground with him, on my own with him, and I wouldn’t be able to answer because I didn’t remember. They would ask if he had spiked my drink. I thought he had, but I wouldn’t be able to say for sure either way.

I knew it wasn’t my fault, but I worried that nobody would believe me. I didn’t want to be questioned. I wasn’t ready. If I could go back in time, knowing what I know now, I would report it, but I didn't. Like so many others, I stayed silent - 85% of those who experience sexual violence in England and Wales today don't report it.
Why was she scared that she would be judged for her behavior? If she truly believed that it was not her fault and her behavior was blameless, then why would she expect anyone to judge her in the first place?

Its worth noting that the "why" questions remains completely unanswered and often dismissed as irrelevant, but is that making women safer?

Then she continues: knowing what she know now, she would have reported it. Which raises the question: where did the rationalization began? back then when she got raped and felt guilty that she might have done something wrong, or now after the new knowledge came in? or in both cases? And what is the new knowledge that changed her mind? %85 of women who experience sexual violence do not report it. Misery indeed loves company.

If Dr. Peterson's interview has any value, in my mind, it is when he mentioned playing with fire. Getting drunk, taking illegal drugs and wearing an almost see-through dress (according to her) should never be considered risk free, in my opinion.
"Bhikkhus, all is burning. And what is the all that is burning?

"The eye is burning, forms are burning, eye-consciousness is burning, eye-contact is burning, also whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with eye-contact for its indispensable condition, that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion. I say it is burning with birth, aging and death, with sorrows, with lamentations, with pains, with griefs, with despairs.
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.
Dan74
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by Dan74 »

Bundokji, frankly I don't see a problem with dressing provocatively at a party, when one is young, horny and on the lookout, as most of young men and women are at a certain age.
Bundokji
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by Bundokji »

Dan74 wrote: Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:05 pm Bundokji, frankly I don't see a problem with dressing provocatively at a party, when one is young, horny and on the lookout, as most of young men and women are at a certain age.
Its worth noting that the guy who "raped" her was young, horny, probably drunk and on the lookout. From the description of the story, both were almost at the same age.

Do you think the guy identifies what happened as rape? or simply scoring one more girl at a party?
I’m going to count you as a notch on my bedpost no matter what,
When she told him "stop its not going to work", he pulled his trousers up and walked off.
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.
justsit
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by justsit »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:00 pm I personally find the following parts of her story worth contemplating:
...

Why was she scared that she would be judged for her behavior? If she truly believed that it was not her fault and her behavior was blameless, then why would she expect anyone to judge her in the first place?
Why? I take it you live somewhere other than the US. Here, her reputation would be ruined, regardless of how the rape actually occurred or what the truth, she will be crucified on social media, misogynist men will dox her, fill her email with hate, and much more. This is not theoretical here, it is what happens IRL. The victim is blamed. Judgment is absolutely the norm in the US. If she reports and the case goes to trial, her entire life will be splattered all over the newspapers.
justsit
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by justsit »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:45 pm Its worth noting that the guy who "raped" her was young, horny, probably drunk and on the lookout. From the description of the story, both were almost at the same age.

Do you think the guy identifies what happened as rape? or simply scoring one more girl at a party?
So the guy gets a pass? Because he was drunk and horny and he didn't think it was rape?

Sorry, no. If she did not explicitly agree to sex before it happened, the means it was non-consensual. Non-consensual and/or coerced sex is rape.
Dan74
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by Dan74 »

B,

What kind of a demented creep thinks it's OK to force himself into an unconscious woman? I don't know man, maybe you should share a bit more about yourself. I am imagining a lot of frustration and disappointment with women behind your posts, but maybe I am off the mark.
Bundokji
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by Bundokji »

justsit wrote: Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:46 pm Why? I take it you live somewhere other than the US. Here, her reputation would be ruined, regardless of how the rape actually occurred or what the truth, she will be crucified on social media, misogynist men will dox her, fill her email with hate, and much more. This is not theoretical here, it is what happens IRL. The victim is blamed. Judgment is absolutely the norm in the US. If she reports and the case goes to trial, her entire life will be splattered all over the newspapers.
What you are describing is a global phenomena, not only the US. Almost everywhere in the world, women are expected to police their sexuality more than men. The question is: is this because people are ignorant and evil? or are there biological reasons for that?

The mere possibility that females can get pregnant might explain why people perceive the dangers of sexual acts to affect females more than males. Women generally are physically weaker. Women has limited number of eggs, while males can produce sperm very easily. Think about the amount of calories a woman would sacrifice if she becomes pregnant, and compare it with how much energy a male spends when he reaches orgasm.
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.
Bundokji
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by Bundokji »

Dan74 wrote: Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:59 pm B,

What kind of a demented creep thinks it's OK to force himself into an unconscious woman? I don't know man, maybe you should share a bit more about yourself. I am imagining a lot of frustration and disappointment with women behind your posts, but maybe I am off the mark.
In your previous post, you said that you see no problem dressing provocatively at a party and you provided reasons for that. She did not only dress provocatively, but also took alcohol and a certain type of drug (MDMA, the powdered form of ecstasy, which is known to make people even more horny), so in my view, you have been selective, trying to sound moderate instead of addressing what really happened. And trying to explain my posts, is not only irrelevant, but refusal to address the issue.

Then, i explained that the above applies to the guy. He is young, and most probably drunk and under the effects of drugs. The author of the story, explained that when she asked him to stop (when she was able to speak) he did and walked off. I raised the question: do you think the guy thinks of what he did as "rape"? Obviously, the woman does, but i doubt the male would accept this interpretation.

Such stories, as well as the metoo movement, are not protecting woman, but exposing them to more danger. Many feminists associate the liberation of women with promiscuity, and in my mind, they do not give a shit about women. They are the ones who seem to have issues as well as the ones who defend them. All in my opinion.
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.
justsit
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by justsit »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:03 pm Almost everywhere in the world, women are expected to police their sexuality more than men. The question is: is this because people are ignorant and evil? or are there biological reasons for that?
I have a bit of a unique perspective here, because I'm transgender female to male. I've lived as a woman until age 62; three years ago I began transitioning and started taking testosterone injections weekly. My libido quickly went from nothing to "14 year old boy" and I found the visual component of sexuality increased immensely, very different from my previous experience. And yes, there is a biological imperative for males to impregnate as many females as possible, but the days when that was necessary to make sure the species survived are long gone. I understand that testosterone is a very powerful hormone, but that does not absolve men from acting in a civilized and respectful manner and keeping their anatomy in their pants unless invited to do otherwise.

Historically, men are bigger, stronger, faster and take what they want. Some (many?) men think they are entitled to sex and should be able to be serviced at will. Men have had almost all the positions of power and authority; indeed, women have been and still are chattel in some places. Women have been tasked primarily with household duties and child rearing, at the mercy of a male to provide food and protections. Even today, women live in world where they must be aware of where they are (isolated area other people around), what time it is (getting dark, must go home), who's lurking on the street, is there a man or group of men on the bus who will attack me?, will my uncle corner me at Christmas dinner, will the guy in office touch me etc. Constant vigilance is necessary, 24-7. It would be nice to think that we have progressed to a more civilized state, where women can live without fear, but we aren't there yet.

No, I don't think men are evil, just often ignorant of morals and manners, without good male parenting and few positive role models.
justsit
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by justsit »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:26 pm In your previous post, you said that you see no problem dressing provocatively at a party and you provided reasons for that. She did not only dress provocatively, but also took alcohol and a certain type of drug (MDMA, the powdered form of ecstasy, which is known to make people even more horny), so in my view, you have been selective, trying to sound moderate instead of addressing what really happened. ...
Then, i explained that the above applies to the guy. He is young, and most probably drunk and under the effects of drugs. The author of the story, explained that when she asked him to stop (when she was able to speak) he did and walked off. I raised the question: do you think the guy thinks of what he did as "rape"? Obviously, the woman does, but i doubt the male would accept this interpretation.
So if the woman had a drink and does drugs, does that entitle the man to have sex without PRIOR CONSENT? And does that fact that "He is young, and most probably drunk and under the effects of drugs" mean he's absolved of responsibility?

If a man has sex with many women, is he seen as promiscuous?
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by Bundokji »

justsit wrote: Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:40 pm I have a bit of a unique perspective here, because I'm transgender female to male. I've lived as a woman until age 62; three years ago I began transitioning and started taking testosterone injections weekly. My libido quickly went from nothing to "14 year old boy" and I found the visual component of sexuality increased immensely, very different from my previous experience. And yes, there is a biological imperative for males to impregnate as many females as possible, but the days when that was necessary to make sure the species survived are long gone. I understand that testosterone is a very powerful hormone, but that does not absolve men from acting in a civilized and respectful manner and keeping their anatomy in their pants unless invited to do otherwise.

Historically, men are bigger, stronger, faster and take what they want. Some (many?) men think they are entitled to sex and should be able to be serviced at will. Men have had almost all the positions of power and authority; indeed, women have been and still are chattel in some places. Women have been tasked primarily with household duties and child rearing, at the mercy of a male to provide food and protections. Even today, women live in world where they must be aware of where they are (isolated area other people around), what time it is (getting dark, must go home), who's lurking on the street, is there a man or group of men on the bus who will attack me?, will my uncle corner me at Christmas dinner, will the guy in office touch me etc. Constant vigilance is necessary, 24-7. It would be nice to think that we have progressed to a more civilized state, where women can live without fear, but we aren't there yet.

No, I don't think men are evil, just often ignorant of morals and manners, without good male parenting and few positive role models.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I almost agree with everything you said, but until we get there, women should remain vigilant. What is sad, in my view, is that women have been presented as mere sexual objects by those who claim to protect them more than those who harass them.
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.
Bundokji
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by Bundokji »

justsit wrote: Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:50 pm So if the woman had a drink and does drugs, does that entitle the man to have sex without PRIOR CONSENT? And does that fact that "He is young, and most probably drunk and under the effects of drugs" mean he's absolved of responsibility?

If a man has sex with many women, is he seen as promiscuous?
Good points. Let us examine how the idea of consent have been developing. In the old days, "no" at times meant "yes". In most conservative countries, silence means yes, the woman's pride does not allow her to say yes to sex explicitly. In some countries nowadays, unless the woman says yes explicitly, there is no consent.

The above is more complicated in real life. In the sad world we live in, people try to take advantage of each other and interpret consent in the way that suits them. In real life, sex does not have to constitute a purely physical attraction between the two. Some women can choose to have sex (or give the impression that they are going to give it) in order to get favors, money, or simply free drinks at the bar.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergamy

So, what sort of mixed messages has been happening between the two before she wakes up is unknown, but she mentioned that he bought her a drink, and they danced. When i lived in the west and saw what constitutes dancing especially among teen agers, i was shocked!

From my personal observations, for most women, sex is more linked to self image than it is for men (who focuses more on sensuality). So they act dangerously and heedlessly, and when they wake up finding themselves in shitty situations, they suffer.

Unless the above is acknowledged, women will continue to suffer, all under the name of "equality". There are meaningful differences between the two sexes in my opinion, and its getting increasingly denied for ideological reasons.
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.
Pseudobabble
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by Pseudobabble »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:13 pm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergamy
Image

Image

Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)
Extrapolation from the particular to the general is fraught with danger. If the actions of some men warrant the tarring of 'Masculinity' with the epithet 'Toxic', what are we to make of the disparities in crime rates between different ethnicities, in, say, the US? Perhaps it is not as simple as saying 'X type is a disgrace', though that is certainly easier, and more satisfying to the speaker.

The solution is very obvious, though apparently not too easy to follow.
Dan74
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by Dan74 »

B,

While as you say there is biology and across times and cultures things have often been very different, in most places these days, folks are taught (or should be taught) to respect others, which includes the wishes of others. Western boys and men, growing up in Western cultures, learn very early on that girls sometimes dress provocatively, which does not mean they wish to be grabbed or to have anyone force themselves onto them. Maybe in some places men could reasonable think so, but not in the West. A woman dressing sexily at a party is not at fault for waking up and finding someone trying to penetrate her. You can of course argue that she was not being cautious and sensible and I agree, but hey, has anyone here actually lived through their youth always being cautious and sensible? If you're at a café and leave your phone on your table absent-mindedly when you go to the bathroom and find it stolen, this doesn't make the bastard who took it any less of a thief. So we should be careful not to conflate the two issues.
Bundokji
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by Bundokji »

Dan74 wrote: Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:06 pm B,

While as you say there is biology and across times and cultures things have often been very different, in most places these days, folks are taught (or should be taught) to respect others, which includes the wishes of others. Western boys and men, growing up in Western cultures, learn very early on that girls sometimes dress provocatively, which does not mean they wish to be grabbed or to have anyone force themselves onto them. Maybe in some places men could reasonable think so, but not in the West. A woman dressing sexily at a party is not at fault for waking up and finding someone trying to penetrate her. You can of course argue that she was not being cautious and sensible and I agree, but hey, has anyone here actually lived through their youth always being cautious and sensible? If you're at a café and leave your phone on your table absent-mindedly when you go to the bathroom and find it stolen, this doesn't make the bastard who took it any less of a thief. So we should be careful not to conflate the two issues.
I agree. But the case of rape is a bit more complicated. Had he forced her to continue performing oral sex after she told him to stop, i would have called it rape without hesitation. Maybe in the west, the word "rape" is being used more loosely as a deterrent, but be honest: would you consider this a clear cut case? It was not a clear cut case in her own mind, until the recent movement started to emerge and influenced her interpretation of what happened.

I no longer live in the west, but watching the news as an outsider, it makes western men look bad evident by your friend's comment, which is not fair to say the least. Your description of how most western men are raised match my own observations. It becomes more complicated when we take into consideration that most western societies are diverse due to immigration, and there are no official statistics showing links between the issue of harassment and certain ethnicities.

Also using the word "rape" loosely do not seem to be a perfect solution. A radically feminist country like Sweden has the highest rape cases per capita. Also the psychological impact on women who interpret some incidents (such as the woman who shared her story) as rape is not clearly measured. Encouraging women to see "rape" in varying degrees of men's offenses is causing reaction into the other direction. Some legitimate grievances can be dismissed as left wing non-sense.
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.
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