Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Applying the Dharma to social justice issues – race, religion, sexuality and identity
Dan74
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by Dan74 »

The definition of rape is sex without consent. I know the common image is a violent act, but no, this hasn't been necessarily the case for quite some time. The circumstances are taken into account at sentencing, but no consent means rape. In Sweden it is even a bit broader, as in what was alleged against Assange. The complainant there didn't allege that the sex was non-consensual but that he failed to wear a condom which was what she had stipulated the night before. According to Swedish law this vitiates consent and it becomes rape. This wouldn't be the case in most other jurisdictions, I believe.

But we are far away from the intent of the topic. Earlier on you said that #metoo is bound to be harmful rather than good for women, that feminism brings about more suffering. Can you expand on that?

And of course Western man are bad, or rather some are. Western women are also bad, or rather some are. There is all manner of suffering people inflict on one another.
Last edited by Dan74 on Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
justsit
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by justsit »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:37 pm A radically feminist country like Sweden has the highest rape cases per capita
It might be more accurate to say "A radically feminist country like Sweden has the highest reported rape cases per capita."
The most widely accepted statistic on US rape is that roughly 85% of rapes go unreported, for the reasons we discussed in previous posts. My guess is that the validity of such statistics varies significantly by country/location. Perhaps women in a feminist country are more confident to report knowing that they will be taken seriously?

I'd like to offer kudos to all posting here. This is a difficult topic that can incite strong emotional responses, and everyone so far has offered reasonable and respectful replies that promote understanding. Well done, and such a breath of fresh air instead of the usual outcome.
chownah
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by chownah »

DNS wrote: Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:14 pm Whereas in Las Vegas women on the news and many other women show quite a bit of cleavage (much more than the woman in the video above) that it is seen as normal and no one even takes a second look, since almost everyone is wearing opened-up tops.
I think you are wrong.....someone does take a second look.....there are many many someones who take a second look...."nice rack" they might be thinking.....some might aspire to more than a look....and it sometimes all goes downhill from there.....reminds me of the donald who might want to start grabbing.....
There doesn't seem to be too much emphasis put on the fact that regardless of what is done to reduce the problem of inappropriate sexual behavior there will always be a certain percentage of people who engage in it......the world is dukkha is it not?
chownah
Bundokji
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by Bundokji »

Dan74 wrote: Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:42 pm The definition of rape is sex without consent. I know the common image is a violent act, but no, this hasn't been necessarily the case for quite some time. The circumstances are taken into account at sentencing, but no consent means rape. In Sweden it is even a bit broader, as in what was alleged against Assange. The complainant there didn't allege that the sex was non-consensual but that he failed to wear a condom which was what she had stipulated the night before. According to Swedish law this vitiates consent and it becomes rape. This wouldn't be the case in most other jurisdictions, I believe.

But we are far away from the intent of the topic. Earlier on you said that #metoo is bound to be harmful rather than good for women, that feminism brings about more suffering. Can you expand on that?

And of course Western man are bad, or rather some are. Western women are also bad, or rather some are. There is all manner of suffering people inflict on one another.
There is no global consensus on the meaning of "rape", and the common image of a violent act is somehow sensible in my opinion. Reality is a negotiated thing and sex is no exception. For example, some would describe paid employment as modern slavery, and there is a grain of truth in that, but would that be sensible? If we don't use words properly, they lose their meaning, which leads them to become misused leading to more suffering.

The way how consent has been generated will always be relevant in my opinion. For example, If there is evidence that the guy spiked the girl's drink in the story shared on the BBC, then i would personally describe it as rape. This is why, it should be assessed on a case by case basis. To call every single sexual relationship where women suddenly realized that they were not sure about it as "rape" is absurd in my opinion. Keeping relationships (regardless of their form) as a shared responsibility helps both women and men to act more responsibly and eventually contribute to keeping women safe.

When i mentioned the #metoo movement or some feminists, i am linking the potential harm to excesses and at the same time trying to avoid making hasty generalizations. Raising awareness should be encouraged if done with good intentions. Also the meaning of a message is not only driven by its content, but also by how its presented. If the purpose of the #metoo movement is to present women as victims and men as evil, then it is bound to cause more harm than good. If the intention of feminism is to link women's freedom with sexual promiscuity denying any meaningful differences between the sexes, then it becomes harmful. I am making conditional statements, where i see things can go wrong.

Do i have reasons to suspect that the above is happening? yes, evident by what your friend told you. You can also read comments all over the internet on videos and articles related to the subject we are discussing, and you can see that you are either an open minded compassionate liberal or a misogynist who encourage rape. And you might encounter some who would shatter at the offensiveness of presenting a different opinion, or you might be suspected of having issues with women (until proven innocent), same as you did in a previous post.

Of course, there are bad men and women in the west as everywhere else, but more generally, women in the west enjoy more freedom, probably more than other parts of the world, without being harassed. Its akin to watching the news about the middle east, thinking that if you go and visit, its very likely to find an extremist waiting for you down at the corner, which is far from what is happening in real life, even though the reports about extremism and violence are accurate.

Once people accept that the world will never be perfect, they might begin to approach problems with more humility, and with a mindset driven by a desire to reduce or end suffering rather than creating more. All in my opinion.
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.
Bundokji
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by Bundokji »

justsit wrote: Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:53 pm It might be more accurate to say "A radically feminist country like Sweden has the highest reported rape cases per capita."
The most widely accepted statistic on US rape is that roughly 85% of rapes go unreported, for the reasons we discussed in previous posts. My guess is that the validity of such statistics varies significantly by country/location. Perhaps women in a feminist country are more confident to report knowing that they will be taken seriously?
This is how it is often interpreted, and i have no doubt that there is a lot of truth in this explanation, but do we have any evidence that this is the only reason why in a radically feminist country the number of per capita reported rape cases is the highest in the world?
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.
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Aloka
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by Aloka »

Bundokji wrote: Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:16 am
I also think that explaining the dark side of female sexuality is less explored and acknowledged in the world we live in. The fact that some novels/movies such as 50 shades of grey became too popular among many women might be interpreted by some that respect has very little to do when it comes to the game of sexuality. Also some statistical data might come as shocking to some:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... -fantasies

Personally, I didn't read "Fifty Shades of Grey" or see the movie :shrug:

I've also never heard any of my female friends talk about rape fantasies and I'm extremely sceptical about this comment from the above link which implies that the fantasies of 90% of all women are known to the people doing "recent studies".
In recent studies, more than 90 percent of women admit having had sexual fantasies, and depending on the study, some one-third to two-thirds confess at least occasional fantasies of being forced into sex. Of course, sexual assault is a horrible violation. Why would any sane woman fantasize about it? A recent study suggests that rape fantasies are most prevalent among women who are the most erotically open and adventurous, who feel most comfortable daydreaming about sexual situations way beyond what they’d ever want to experience.
As for a real and extremely brutal sex attack - a few years ago a friend of mine was walking home in the dark after a late meating at work and suddenly a strange man wearing a mask and waving a knife leaped out at her knocked her down, tore her clothes and attacked her sexually in the most horrendous and brutal way - and urinated all over her as well.. I can't even bring myself to repeat what else he did and please don't ask about any other details because I haven't asked her permission to write this.

Interestingly, I've never heard of any men being attacked by women in this way, whereas we frequently hear about sexual abuse of women and children by men :thinking:


Image

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Bundokji
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by Bundokji »

Aloka wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:36 am I've also never heard any of my female friends talk about rape fantasies and I'm extremely sceptical about this comment from the above link which implies that the fantasies of 90% of all women are known to the people doing "recent studies".
I shared it as is. I fail to see why would they lie though.
Interestingly, I've never heard of any men being attacked by women in this way, whereas we frequently hear about sexual abuse of women and children by men :thinking:
Indeed. Female sexuality do not seem to express itself in this form except in very rare occasions in comparison with men.
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.
Kamran
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by Kamran »

I know its not acceptable to even consider this in the west....

But this woman walked 5 hours in NYC wearing normal casual clothing, and another 5 hours wearing hijab.

She was constantly harassed and stalked when in casual clothing, but not bothered even once and walked peacefully and safely while wearing hijab.

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Aloka
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by Aloka »

Does this imply that women should hide their bodies in fear of harassment from men? Does it make them somehow "unclean" or "asking for it" not to hide their natural body shape?

Shouldn't men also not display their hair, not wear tight trousers showing the outline of their genitals, or shorts in summer, or vests displaying most of their upper bodies.... and wear shapeless dark robes and hoods instead?

People seek gender equality these days, not prejudice.



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DNS
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by DNS »

Aloka wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:36 am I've also never heard any of my female friends talk about rape fantasies and I'm extremely sceptical about this comment from the above link which implies that the fantasies of 90% of all women are known to the people doing "recent studies".
That's what I have heard from female friends too. This idea that women secretly have a "rape desire" I think comes more from men than women. During a rape there is a high likelihood of being seriously injured or even getting killed. I can't imagine anyone would "want" that.
Interestingly, I've never heard of any men being attacked by women in this way, whereas we frequently hear about sexual abuse of women and children by men
True, but men do get attacked sometimes, almost always by other men (especially in prisons, for example).
Bundokji
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by Bundokji »

DNS wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:06 pm That's what I have heard from female friends too. This idea that women secretly have a "rape desire" I think comes more from men than women. During a rape there is a high likelihood of being seriously injured or even getting killed. I can't imagine anyone would "want" that.
There might be an evolutionary explanation for such strange fantasy (if it truly exist). Maybe rape symbolizes dominance. Among animals, dominant males in the herd are the ones who copulate and pass on their genes. Also this might explain why in the real world, it is commonly believed that many women might show interest in males who do not treat them in a very nice way.

In the story i shared from the BBC, dominance was implied in the very first paragraph by the woman who shared her story. She was explaining her initial interest in him:
I’d seen him around quite a bit at uni. He was good-looking and smart. People talked about him like he was a celebrity. I’d had a fling with one of his friends six months earlier, but we’d never spoken properly. He seemed to shimmer whenever I saw him, and was always surrounded by a group of male friends who all had the effortless cool of people who knew they had the world at their feet.
At least from the above perspective, sex has a logic of its own as i mentioned earlier. For long term relationships, women seem to care more about the man's character, but not necessarily in random sexual affairs.
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.
Bundokji
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by Bundokji »

Kamran wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:55 pm I know its not acceptable to even consider this in the west....

But this woman walked 5 hours in NYC wearing normal casual clothing, and another 5 hours wearing hijab.

She was constantly harassed and stalked when in casual clothing, but not bothered even once and walked peacefully and safely while wearing hijab.

With all due respect Kamran, this experiment can be misleading. In a non Muslim country where the vast majority of women do not wear hijab, it is unlikely that men will harass a woman wearing one. But in Muslim countries where the majority wear hijab (especially Saudi and Iran) woman are harassed all the time. When covering women is the norm, this only lower the bar of what makes men excited.

Its worth noting that many women are raped in Muslim countries under the name of marriage. When we had the Syrian refugees where i live, i heard stories of many men marrying women who are much younger than them for a limited period of time in exchange of some money to the family in need.
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.
Kamran
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by Kamran »

Bundokji wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:22 pm
Kamran wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:55 pm I know its not acceptable to even consider this in the west....

But this woman walked 5 hours in NYC wearing normal casual clothing, and another 5 hours wearing hijab.

She was constantly harassed and stalked when in casual clothing, but not bothered even once and walked peacefully and safely while wearing hijab.

With all due respect Kamran, this experiment can be misleading. In a non Muslim country where the vast majority of women do not wear hijab, it is unlikely that men will harass a woman wearing one. But in Muslim countries where the majority wear hijab (especially Saudi and Iran) woman are harassed all the time. When covering women is the norm, this only lower the bar of what makes men excited.

Its worth noting that many women are raped in Muslim countries under the name of marriage. When we had the Syrian refugees where i live, i heard stories of many men marrying women who are much younger than them for a limited period of time in exchange of some money to the family in need.
Yes, I agree regarding Muslim countries.

I am not trying to make a moral statement about what men or women should do, or what it is right for everyone.

Just pointing out the reality.

If you are a woman, and need to walk around a big city, this video might be of interest to you.
chownah
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by chownah »

Aloka wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:00 pm Does this imply that women should hide their bodies in fear of harassment from men?
It implies that in certain situations a woman can reduce the likelihood of being harassed by men by not displaying her body. Isn't this just common sense? Don't most women know this already?
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Aloka
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by Aloka »

Bundokji wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:22 pm ..... this experiment can be misleading. In a non Muslim country where the vast majority of women do not wear hijab, it is unlikely that men will harass a woman wearing one. But in Muslim countries where the majority wear hijab (especially Saudi and Iran) woman are harassed all the time. When covering women is the norm, this only lower the bar of what makes men excited.
Thank you for pointing this out, Bundokji.

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DeadCircuits
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by DeadCircuits »

I find that a lot of this debate is so hard to disassociate from the issues that revolve around social media.

In my view the issue is that the content on social media feeds off division. People tend to interact more with stuff that irks them somehow. Thus this kind of content will be shown more often by the algorithms on our feeds. They are working out how best to improve content interaction in order to make more money from advertising. Unfortunately it seems that a good way to do this is to propagate stuff that turns one group against the other in increasingly irksome ways.

It works on me, that's for sure. That recent story of the woman who was squirting bleach at 'man-spreaders' on public transport made me a little angry. Don't get me wrong, I don't advocate that men ought to be able to take up more room than is reasonably necessary on crowded transport, but is this really the solution? To make such a provocative gesture? I would like to live in a world in which men are polite enough to be aware of how much space they are taking up on transport, and considerate enough to move if someone wants to sit next to them. But the result of such a provocative gesture is surely not a step in that direction. I guarantee that a lot of men saw that viral content, and went straight towards the 'feminism is evil' camp. Likewise someone else might have been drawn into the camp that supported the content, and perhaps decides to emulate it or do something similarly outrageous. That to my eyes is not a good result. Do we really want a war of the sexes?

Feminism raises lots of important points that need addressing in society. We need to have a grown up conversation about what we can do about them, this involves everyone talking to each other kindly and tolerating perhaps some disagreements. The direction we are headed is dangerously polarised, and I don't think it will result in anyone getting what they aim for.

Perhaps I am being a bit conspiratorial, but I think there probably are a lot of people out there who don't care about the cause, making deliberately provocative content, not with the aim of healing societal wounds, but to make money from advertising. I think that stinks and we should really re-examine how we interact on social media.

I agree with a lot of what feminism stands for, not everything, and I'm happy to talk about why I disagree with some things. This needs to be an acceptable position in order that we can have a dialogue. If I go into a debate and someone can't even get past that I think the manspreading video was not the height of heroic justice then we are never going to get anywhere. On all important issues, people will have a vast spectrum of different views, and that is okay.

People are getting radicalised. We are used to hearing this term with regards to Islamist extremists, but it is exactly the same as what we are seeing in western society. These people who run off and join ISIS aren't usually sinister villains with no morals, who just want to kill people. These are people who get groomed online, who become radicalised by seeing stuff that is designed to make them angry. And let's be fair, it's not that difficult to make a person angry at the western world. The content that is radicalising people is not that dissimilar from the content that is making men and women radicalised against each other. It takes the worst, most provocative examples of things that make us angry. Both sides do this against one another and what you get is a s**tstorm with advertisers raking in the dollars.

We need to go down a different path.
Dan74
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by Dan74 »

DeadCircuits, what you're saying is not conspiratorial at all, but rather the known way in which we are being manipulated in order to get our attention for the ads, to get our clicks, our buys and our votes. There are many good sources on this, from Ryan Holiday's classic Trust me, I'm Lying to deliberately fabricated clickbait stories https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-34213693 and Cambridge Analytica scandal, which heralds the brave new world of precision-targeted psychological manipulation of social media users.
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by Kim O'Hara »

I will just throw this in here to shift, as it says, the emphasis from women's actions to men's behaviour -

passive-voice.jpg
passive-voice.jpg (75.25 KiB) Viewed 5038 times

:namaste:
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Dorje Shedrub
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by Dorje Shedrub »

:goodpost:

Rosa
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Dan74
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? Or how to be a real man but not an ***hole (or at least try)

Post by Dan74 »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:06 am I will just throw this in here to shift, as it says, the emphasis from women's actions to men's behaviour -


passive-voice.jpg


:namaste:
Kim
Let's pause for a moment to consider what the import of this statement is. What do we want to focus on, the suffering of women, how to help the victims, compassionate action, or vilification of men?

If I say 'last year 55 million men committed violent acts against women', what would be the typical reaction? "Those bastards! We need higher sentences. Castrate the rapists and child molesters! Etc..." I don't think the world needs more anger. And no, let's not kid ourselves, everyone knows that most of the perpetrators of violence are men. The real question is what this means.
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