What is an SJW?

Applying the Dharma to social justice issues – race, religion, sexuality and identity
Bundokji
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Re: What is an SJW?

Post by Bundokji » Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:11 am

Cinnabar wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:38 pm
I don't think it's lost on anyone that posting memes on social media to people who agree with one's politics is no form of activism. Nor is demonizing people with alternative political and social views.
I think this is the crux of the matter. Unfortunately, many people seem to have reduced activism to what you just described.

Maybe it would be interesting to contemplate how the internet contributed to this phenomena. Nowadays, we can choose to associate with like minded people. Social media had the effect of making appearances more important than substance. Winning debates became more important than the investigation of truth. This is where having a political opponent (rather than a partner in society) becomes essential. This is why, the phenomena of SJW seem to be more prominent among younger generation.
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.

Cinnabar
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Re: What is an SJW?

Post by Cinnabar » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:19 am

Kim O'Hara wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:06 am
Hi, Cinnabar,
I'm not at all clear about whether you distinguish between the label "SJW" being something you apply to yourself and the label "SJW" being something others apply to you (or you apply to others).
I don't apply it to myself or to others-- as I find it pejorative.

I have had it applied to me, and I have seen it applied to others-- pejoratively.

My OP is sincere. I see it applied in arbitrary and vague ways. Perhaps intentionally so. Sometimes it seems the issues make one an SJW. Sometimes one's tone. Sometimes one's methodology, philosophy or rhetoric.

In my case-- it's been applied because of the issues. Anything related to gender or women's issues is SJW territory for many.

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: What is an SJW?

Post by Kim O'Hara » Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:22 am

Cinnabar wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:19 am
Kim O'Hara wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:06 am
Hi, Cinnabar,
I'm not at all clear about whether you distinguish between the label "SJW" being something you apply to yourself and the label "SJW" being something others apply to you (or you apply to others).
I don't apply it to myself or to others-- as I find it pejorative.
Good.

I have had it applied to me, and I have seen it applied to others-- pejoratively.
That's the way it's normally used.
My OP is sincere. I see it applied in arbitrary and vague ways. Perhaps intentionally so. Sometimes it seems the issues make one an SJW. Sometimes one's tone. Sometimes one's methodology, philosophy or rhetoric.

In my case-- it's been applied because of the issues. Anything related to gender or women's issues is SJW territory for many.
As I've suggested before, it means what the user wants it to mean. That being so, looking for a consistent logical meaning is a waste of time: the most reasonable translation of, "You're just an SJW," is, "Your social activism annoys me."

There's a story somewhere in the scriptures of an exceptionally rude man abusing the Buddha. The Buddha, of course, was not fazed at all. When the man had gone, his followers asked the Buddha how he managed to maintain his calm.
"Well," he said, "you know that people come to me with gifts. Sometimes I accept them, sometimes I don't. That man brought me a gift of his anger. I chose not to accept it."

Without claiming to put either of us on that level, I think it's a good approach to dealing with the SJW label.

:namaste:
Kim

Cinnabar
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Re: What is an SJW?

Post by Cinnabar » Sat Mar 02, 2019 7:35 pm

Kim...

I understand that it's largely pejorative. That's pretty clear when one asks somebody who has called you an SJW and they can't define it. It is an emotional response.

At the same time, I think there is some basis to some criticisms of activism as SJW.

There is activism with well defined objectives and then there is an open-ended social and cultural criticism. There is activism with a focused ideology and then there is a response to one's pain or outrage. There is a hard and soft spine or core to activism.

The challenge seems to be that both hard and soft activism have to play together. And that critiques of soft activism will tend to reach for the hard as well.

We can all agree that Tumblr activism at the level of there was no vegan chai latte so misogyny is annoying and undermining of real work against misogyny. And we can agree that sweeping that faux activism together with real work against, say, domestic violence, is equally problematic.

At the level of practice it seems to come down to what one of my teachers said last night. Learning to distinguish what's happening from what we think is happening.

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: What is an SJW?

Post by Kim O'Hara » Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:48 am

You make some good points. Can I comment on just a couple of them?
Cinnabar wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 7:35 pm
There is activism with well defined objectives and then there is an open-ended social and cultural criticism.
There may be parallels here with real compassion and "idiot compassion".
Cinnabar wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 7:35 pm
At the level of practice it seems to come down to what one of my teachers said last night. Learning to distinguish what's happening from what we think is happening.
Indeed. Examining our motivation, noting what we actually achieve (and what we can even hope to achieve), tossing out unhelpful labels, de-identifying with political groups, etc.

:namaste:
Kim

Cinnabar
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Re: What is an SJW?

Post by Cinnabar » Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:57 pm

Something I'm struggling with is this difference between what is happening or what I think is happening.

Say a man cat-calls and harasses a woman. As a feminist it's very natura for me to then call this "patriarchal oppression". But if I look for this patriarchy-- I can't find it. I find things that elicit attribution to patriarchy. But I don't find patriarchy.

But if I move towards this man, instead of away from him. Get to know him. Then I might realize that what motivates his cat calling is a distorted sexuality, loneliness, anger, resentment. I can find that. Locate that.

It seems much of our politics and activism enters a meta-level for the sake of articulating ideas to large groups of people. And gets stuck there. It seems people naturally and instinctively know that these meta-ideas are not real. I have heard women say: I don't care about patriarchy. I don't want to be hurt.

BOOM

It seems the same with ecotastrophe. At the bottom people know they aren't happy and that going into debt consuming doesn't help. Plastic particles in fish and 4C temperature rises are abstracted from that basic human level.

*shrug*

dxm_dxm
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Re: What is an SJW?

Post by dxm_dxm » Sat May 18, 2019 12:44 pm

SJW = modern Puritan. Identical with the puritans of the past in terms of traits and behavior, different only in views.

It exists mainly in the UK and UK colonies (USA, AU, CA) and has a small presence in puritan, but non-english speaking countries (Germany and other northern european countries). It pretty much does not exist in non-puritan countries.

Puritan societies, like all societies, have advantages and disadvantages. Yet, despite the problems with narcissism, fakeness, anti-debate mentality and annoying modern Puritans, this form of society has proven to be the most successful ever invented, at least if we take the English-speaking countries out and leave only the germans&co in. It has proven highly superior not only in economic development but especially in the development of positive moral traits and reduction of negative traits. It's hard to make a case for any other type of society being superior from a Buddhist point of view.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: What is an SJW?

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed May 22, 2019 7:25 pm

Someone who pushes for acceptance over tolerance at the expense of freedom of speech and expression.

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Dharmasherab
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Re: What is an SJW?

Post by Dharmasherab » Fri May 24, 2019 7:29 am



This small video explains what makes someone an SJW in a satirical manner. A good sense of humor is advised.

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Dharmasherab
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Re: What is an SJW?

Post by Dharmasherab » Fri May 24, 2019 7:31 am



This video known as 'Illiberal Progressives' gives a more detailed explanation as to how modern liberals threaten our basic freedoms and liberties. The term 'liberal' has been appropriated by modern day puritans.

I dont want that happening within Buddhism where SJW views are taught in the garb of Buddhism.

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: What is an SJW?

Post by Kim O'Hara » Fri May 24, 2019 7:56 am

Dharmasherab wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 7:31 am
This video known as 'Illiberal Progressives' gives a more detailed explanation as to how modern liberals threaten our basic freedoms and liberties. The term 'liberal' has been appropriated by modern day puritans.

I dont want that happening within Buddhism where SJW views are taught in the garb of Buddhism.
I don't know if you looked at the first dozen posts in the thread. In brief, labels like "SJW" and "liberal" have been so misused and abused that they are almost meaningless except as terms of approval or abuse. "SJW" is almost always a put-down. "Liberal" is almost always a claim to virtue. Etc.

If you try to rephrase your last sentence so that you avoid "SJW", you might see a problem with it.

:thinking:
Kim

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Ceisiwr
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Re: What is an SJW?

Post by Ceisiwr » Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:32 pm

A SJW is an authoritarian who wishes to use the state and/or intimidation to address certain injustices that they see within society. A SJW can be left wing (the more common form as of late) or right wing (white nationalists, black nationalists and the like).

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: What is an SJW?

Post by Kim O'Hara » Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:31 am

Ceisiwr wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:32 pm
A SJW is an authoritarian who wishes to use the state and/or intimidation to address certain injustices that they see within society. A SJW can be left wing (the more common form as of late) or right wing (white nationalists, black nationalists and the like).
I don't know if you looked at the first dozen posts in the thread. In brief, labels like "SJW" and "liberal" have been so misused and abused that they are almost meaningless except as terms of approval or abuse. "SJW" is almost always a put-down. "Liberal" is almost always a claim to virtue. Etc.

:coffee:
Kim

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Ceisiwr
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Re: What is an SJW?

Post by Ceisiwr » Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:49 pm

Kim O'Hara wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:31 am
Ceisiwr wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:32 pm
A SJW is an authoritarian who wishes to use the state and/or intimidation to address certain injustices that they see within society. A SJW can be left wing (the more common form as of late) or right wing (white nationalists, black nationalists and the like).
I don't know if you looked at the first dozen posts in the thread. In brief, labels like "SJW" and "liberal" have been so misused and abused that they are almost meaningless except as terms of approval or abuse. "SJW" is almost always a put-down. "Liberal" is almost always a claim to virtue. Etc.

:coffee:
Kim

They are overused by the right like how the left over uses racist or Nazi, yet still those words have meaning.

In my experience liberal is used as a put down.

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: What is an SJW?

Post by Kim O'Hara » Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:56 pm

Ceisiwr wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:49 pm
In my experience liberal is used as a put down.
Let me guess: you spend too much time around people who call themselves conservatives.

:popcorn:
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mikenz66
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Re: What is an SJW?

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:26 am

I get really confused by the term "liberal", since, as an adjective it means "willing to respect or accept behaviour or opinions different from one's own; open to new ideas" But as a noun it tends to mean a conservative political party... Language does have odd ways of evolving...

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Mike

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DNS
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Re: What is an SJW?

Post by DNS » Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:51 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:26 am
I get really confused by the term "liberal", since, as an adjective it means "willing to respect or accept behaviour or opinions different from one's own; open to new ideas" But as a noun it tends to mean a conservative political party... Language does have odd ways of evolving...

:heart:
Mike
Yes, this is true, as we both noted in the other threads.

A liberal could mean leftist.
A liberal could mean centrist (some Liberal parties are centrist).
A [Classical] liberal could mean Libertarian.

It appears "liberal" has lost it's meaning. Perhaps it's best for people to just refer to themselves as either:

extreme right wing
right wing
centre-right
centrist
centre-left
left wing
extreme left wing

Or alternatively, to which quadrant of the compass one belongs, but that doesn't sound too sexy to say something like "lower-left" or "lower-right."

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SethRich
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Re: What is an SJW?

Post by SethRich » Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:16 am

Greetings,

Traditionally (for me at least) "liberal" seemed to imply something of a "live and let live" mentality of non-interference with others. This correlates with what Mike said, although (for me at least), that description seemed apt traditionally, regardless of whether it was used as an adjective or noun.

However, I think things have perceptibly changed. It's on this basis that I agree with the titling of the above video shared by Dharmasherab, in the sense that many who claim to be "progressive" (or who might be referred to as SJW's) are indeed illiberal, because many of them are so hellbent on censoring, de-platforming, restricting, impeaching, harassing, doxing and hectoring others. These are not qualities traditionally associated with being liberal.

In short, it would appear to me that, generally speaking, "liberals" (noun) have become a lot less "liberal" (adjective) this century.

:candle:
"He goes to hell, the one who asserts what didn’t take place" (Ud 4.8)
"Let us neither be perpetrators nor victims!" (DN26)

"Transition to greatness" (Donald J. Trump)

:candle: "...his name was Seth Rich..."

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Charbel
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Re: What is an SJW?

Post by Charbel » Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:38 am

Ceisiwr wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:32 pm
A SJW is an authoritarian who wishes to use the state...
Same with LGBT and feminism because they don't naturally have a larger natural community support.
Ceisiwr wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:32 pm
white nationalists
White nationalists can appeal to the mainstream culture. The Nazis, for example, were voted as the largest party in 1932 by a democracy. Trump campaigned originally as a sort of self-funded independent and based on white nationalism. He gathered support based on mainstream sentiment. For example, the Democrats in the USA are still campaigning largely on mainstream issues, including pro-imperialism. For example, in Australia, the last national election had an opposition campaigning on predominant SJW issues, including environmentalism. They got flogged.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: What is an SJW?

Post by Ceisiwr » Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:18 am

Charbel wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:38 am
Ceisiwr wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:32 pm
A SJW is an authoritarian who wishes to use the state...
Same with LGBT and feminism because they don't naturally have a larger natural community support.
Ceisiwr wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:32 pm
white nationalists
White nationalists can appeal to the mainstream culture. The Nazis, for example, were voted as the largest party in 1932 by a democracy. Trump campaigned originally as a sort of self-funded independent and based on white nationalism. He gathered support based on mainstream sentiment. For example, the Democrats in the USA are still campaigning largely on mainstream issues, including pro-imperialism. For example, in Australia, the last national election had an opposition campaigning on predominant SJW issues, including environmentalism. They got flogged.


LGBT and feminism isn’t inherently authoritarian though.

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