Abortion & Ahimsa

Applying the Dharma to social justice issues – race, religion, sexuality and identity
Presto Kensho
Posts: 709
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:52 pm

Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

Post by Presto Kensho »

Jason wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:45 am
Presto Kensho wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:14 am
Jason wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:09 am

I'm curious if you could provide some reference to the medical community's consensus that abortion is murder and not considered reproductive healthcare.
I hope you realize there's a difference between actual medical science and the personal opinions of the doctors and nurses you might meet at the hospital.
Sure. Still waiting, though.
Where should we begin? Do you deny that unborn children are capable of feeling pain, according to valid medical science, or do you just not care?
Jason
Posts: 69
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:19 am

Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

Post by Jason »

Presto Kensho wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:00 am
Jason wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:57 am
Presto Kensho wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:55 am

While those might be good talking points according to political consultants, the reality remains that about half of America's abortions annually are performed by Planned Parenthood.
And?
Even if federal funding isn't spent by Planned Parenthood on abortion, the fact that they receive any federal funding at all means they are freer to spend private donations and state taxes on abortions.

Why should an entity which sells baby parts and pays employees bonuses for abortions performed receive any federal tax dollars for any reason? If the KKK provided free condoms and pap smears, would you want it to be federally funded?
So now you're comparing PP to the KKK? Wow.
Last edited by Jason on Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jason
Posts: 69
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:19 am

Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

Post by Jason »

Presto Kensho wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:03 am
Jason wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:45 am
Presto Kensho wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:14 am

I hope you realize there's a difference between actual medical science and the personal opinions of the doctors and nurses you might meet at the hospital.
Sure. Still waiting, though.
Where should we begin? Do you deny that unborn children are capable of feeling pain, according to valid medical science, or do you just not care?
Perhaps we could begin with you providing some reference to the medical community's consensus that abortion is murder and not considered reproductive healthcare, and then maybe we can discuss at what point an embryo or fetus can feel pain, which I touched upon in my initial post.
Presto Kensho
Posts: 709
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:52 pm

Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

Post by Presto Kensho »

Jason wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:14 am
Presto Kensho wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:03 am
Jason wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:45 am

Sure. Still waiting, though.
Where should we begin? Do you deny that unborn children are capable of feeling pain, according to valid medical science, or do you just not care?
Perhaps we could begin with you providing some reference to the medical community's consensus that abortion is murder and not considered reproductive healthcare, and then maybe we can discuss at what point an embryo or fetus can feel pain, which I touched upon in my initial post.
If the act of abortion is the termination of pain-capable human life, then it's obvious killing, if not murder, regardless of whatever politically correct euphemism we use to describe it.

Have you contemplated the torture and pain that unborn children experience during an abortion? Have you even watched a video of an abortion from inside the womb?
Presto Kensho
Posts: 709
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:52 pm

Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

Post by Presto Kensho »

Jason wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:10 am
Presto Kensho wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:00 am
Jason wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:57 am

And?
Even if federal funding isn't spent by Planned Parenthood on abortion, the fact that they receive any federal funding at all means they are freer to spend private donations and state taxes on abortions.

Why should an entity which sells baby parts and pays employees bonuses for abortions performed receive any federal tax dollars for any reason? If the KKK provided free condoms and pap smears, would you want it to be federally funded?
So now you're comparing PP to the KKK? Wow.
OK... I guess you are not denying that Planned Parenthood sells baby parts and rewards employees for fulfilling abortion quotas.
Jason
Posts: 69
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:19 am

Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

Post by Jason »

Presto Kensho wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:23 am
Jason wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:10 am
Presto Kensho wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:00 am

Even if federal funding isn't spent by Planned Parenthood on abortion, the fact that they receive any federal funding at all means they are freer to spend private donations and state taxes on abortions.

Why should an entity which sells baby parts and pays employees bonuses for abortions performed receive any federal tax dollars for any reason? If the KKK provided free condoms and pap smears, would you want it to be federally funded?
So now you're comparing PP to the KKK? Wow.
OK... I guess you are not denying that Planned Parenthood sells baby parts and rewards employees for fulfilling abortion quotas.
While I'm sympathetic to people who dislike the idea of abortion and view it as the ending of a human life, I'm less sympathetic to hyperbole or wild claims with no evidence. You've mentioned a couple of time that PP sells baby parts, and I've posted a news article that no evidence of this was found. Would you care to address that or just post more wild accusations and comparisons to the KKK and any other outrageous thing you can think of?
Presto Kensho
Posts: 709
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:52 pm

Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

Post by Presto Kensho »

Jason wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:34 am
Presto Kensho wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:23 am
Jason wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:10 am

So now you're comparing PP to the KKK? Wow.
OK... I guess you are not denying that Planned Parenthood sells baby parts and rewards employees for fulfilling abortion quotas.
While I'm sympathetic to people who dislike the idea of abortion and view it as the ending of a human life, I'm less sympathetic to hyperbole or wild claims with no evidence. You've mentioned a couple of time that PP sells baby parts, and I've posted a news article that no evidence of this was found. Would you care to address that or just post more wild accusations and comparisons to the KKK and any other outrageous thing you can think of?
According to investigative journalists and former employees, Planned Parenthood sells baby parts. I am not trying to win a debate or score points with you, and I would rather not post here the relevant sources because of how shocking they are.
Presto Kensho
Posts: 709
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:52 pm

Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

Post by Presto Kensho »

A comprehensive review of the scientific literature[1] including neural development, psychology of pain sensation, and moral implications of fetal pain, concludes that unborn babies may experience pain as early as 12 weeks.
The review notes that neural connections from periphery to brain are functionally complete after 18 weeks.
“Nevertheless, we no longer view fetal pain (as a core, immediate, sensation) in a gestational window of 12–24 weeks as impossible based on the neuroscience.”
The review points out that a fetus may not experience pain in the same way as an adult, but does indeed experience pain as a real sensation, and that this pain experience has moral implications.
Significant because this unbiased review of the scientific evidence and agreement on existence of fetal pain, as early as 12 weeks and certainly after 18 weeks, comes from two highly credentialed medical professionals, one pro-choice.
“The two authors came together to write this paper through a shared sense that the neuroscientific data, especially more recent data, could not support a categorical rejection of fetal pain.” ...

Fetal reactions provide evidence of pain response. The unborn baby reacts to noxious stimuli with avoidance reactions and stress responses. As early as 8 weeks the baby exhibits reflex movement during invasive procedures.[9] There is extensive evidence of a hormonal stress response by unborn babies as early as 18 weeks [10] including “increases in cortisol, beta-endorphin, and decreases in the pulsatility index of the fetal middle cerebral artery.”[11] Two independent studies in 2006 used brain scans of the sensory part of unborn babies’ brains, showing response to pain.[12] They found a “clear cortical response” and concluded there was “the potential for both higher-level pain processing and pain-induced plasticity in the human brain from a very early age.”
https://lozierinstitute.org/fact-sheet- ... etal-pain/
The extreme leftists who've taken over the Democratic Party, the mainstream media, college campuses, Planned Parenthood, etc. don't want us to look at any scientific evidence that would call into question their extreme positions on abortion rights. Not even Wikipedia, as far as I can tell, is presenting the above evidence.
Presto Kensho
Posts: 709
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:52 pm

Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

Post by Presto Kensho »

Relatively recently, I switched from being very liberal to moderately conservative. This is because I realized that, between the two major political parties, the Democratic Party is more so the party of violence. Please let me explain.

Democrats promise to increase social programs, which requires an increase in taxes, which are enforced by the threat of violence.

Democrats defend the rioters and looters tearing our country apart, and insist on defunding the police forces that protect us from violent crime, while also denying law-abiding citizens the right to firearms for self-defense.

While police brutality is definitely wrong, so many of its victims are in areas that have been controlled by Democrats for decades, as Tim Scott recently pointed out after Democrats shut down debate on his bill to stop police brutality.

Barack Obama, our most recent Democratic president, escalated the war in Afghanistan while also increasing America's use of drone warfare, all while being a winner of the Nobel peace prize.

While it might be true that Bush shouldn't have started the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan in the first place, he couldn't have done so without the support of Congressional Democrats.

Democrats insist on unrestricted abortion, through all nine months of pregnancy, on pain-capable children, with our federal tax dollars paying for it, while encouraging women to cheer their abortion.

None of the above should be surprising considering that, historically, the Democratic Party is the party of slavery, Jim Crow, the KKK, the Italian mafia, the Vietnam war, etc.

Though I don't believe that Republicans are always right and Democrats are always wrong, I have discovered that Republicans are more often than not the lesser of two evils in matters of actual policy.

Nonviolence is a central concept of India's great religions, and as a student of Indian religions, I can no longer support the Democratic Party. Neither would Gandhi if he were alive today, who opposed abortion as an act of violence.
Presto Kensho
Posts: 709
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:52 pm

Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

Post by Presto Kensho »

What if the Coronavirus lockdowns are keeping churches closed so that people will not hear messages which would discourage them from voting Democrat?

We've already flattened the curve, the original intent of the lockdowns, so why can't people attend church and other religious services?
Presto Kensho
Posts: 709
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:52 pm

Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

Post by Presto Kensho »

Here is a statement from the ACOG basically saying that we need to remove all restrictions on abortion and have it federally funded as well:
https://www.acog.org/clinical/clinical- ... o-abortion

Is the ACOG taking these positions to safeguard women's health or because gynecologists stand to make a ton of cash if these policies are implemented?

While crisis pregnancy centers help women to actually have the choice to keep a child, abortion clinics like Planned Parenthood pressure women to have abortions and reward their employees bonuses for successfully doing so.

My local crisis pregnancy center has a maternity home as well as various other services. It does more good for the community than secular-progressives would like to admit.
User avatar
Nicholas
Posts: 398
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:07 pm

Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

Post by Nicholas »

Presto Kensho wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:30 am [....]
Though I don't believe that Republicans are always right and Democrats are always wrong, I have discovered that Republicans are more often than not the lesser of two evils in matters of actual policy.

Nonviolence is a central concept of India's great religions, and as a student of Indian religions, I can no longer support the Democratic Party. Neither would Gandhi if he were alive today, who opposed abortion as an act of violence.
Good for you Presto. Ahimsa or harmlessness is a simple & excellent keynote to help one to evaluate policy prescriptions of politicians.
May all seek, find and follow the Path of Buddhas.
Presto Kensho
Posts: 709
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:52 pm

Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

Post by Presto Kensho »

If you are a religious person who believes in nonviolence, you might need to reject the radical left for supporting unrestricted, taxpayer-funded abortion and political violence while calling for the removal of all religion in public life.
User avatar
Charbel
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:14 am

Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

Post by Charbel »

Presto Kensho wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:35 am While Trump might be an annoying blowhard, what is his record on the right to life?
what is his record on wars & importation of Afghanistan and other drugs into the USA? :roll:
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed May 22, 2019 7:15 pm

Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

Post by Ceisiwr »

Abortion should be illegal as it violates the right to life.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed May 22, 2019 7:15 pm

Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

Post by Ceisiwr »

DNS
If we ban all abortions, should killing animals (including slaughterhouses) be banned too? Most conservatives would be opposed to that, as they believe eating meat should be allowed if they so choose. Most liberals/progressives would also be opposed to that, as they are pro-choice (regarding abortions) and believe it is a woman's choice. Perhaps the only consistent ones in this regard (complete ahimsa) are the vegan pro-lifers, the few of those, that is.


Abortion should be illegal because it is a human rights violation. Animals do not have rights. One can be anti-abortion and eat meat whilst still being logically consistent. I do it all the time :tongue:
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed May 22, 2019 7:15 pm

Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

Post by Ceisiwr »

lyndon taylor wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:39 pm if you're against abortion, don't have an abortion, you don't have a right to enforce your beliefs on people that don't believe like you do, though.
if you're against murder, don't murder someone, you don't have a right to enforce your beliefs and have laws against murder on people that don't believe like you do, though.
User avatar
Nicholas
Posts: 398
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:07 pm

Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

Post by Nicholas »

Illegal is not banning. There is a wide spectrum of penalties possible, from fines large or small, to misdemeanors, to some jail time, to more jail time for repeat offenders. I would take it easy on the girl or woman, but be harsh on the abortionist.

Since religious and social stigmas are so weak now as to be non-existent, there must be at least a legal stigma.

Encouraging having the baby & adoption will help too.
May all seek, find and follow the Path of Buddhas.
User avatar
lyndon taylor
Posts: 526
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:30 pm
Location: US occupied Northern Mexico

Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

Post by lyndon taylor »

And its the right wingers that are of no support to pregnant women, and of no support to them after they have their baby, and cut welfare and food stamp programmes that would help young mothers of low income, the hypocracy knows no bounds!!
User avatar
Charbel
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:14 am

Re: Justice Ginsburg Died

Post by Charbel »

What is the kammic destination of abortionists? :?
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 27 guests