Abortion & Ahimsa

Applying the Dharma to social justice issues – race, religion, sexuality and identity
Presto Kensho
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Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

Post by Presto Kensho »

Double post
Last edited by Presto Kensho on Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Presto Kensho
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Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

Post by Presto Kensho »

lyndon taylor wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:39 pm if you're against abortion, don't have an abortion, you don't have a right to enforce your beliefs on people that don't believe like you do, though.
How many times does someone need to explain that there's a difference between supporting abortion rights generally and supporting taxpayer-funded abortion through all nine months of pregnancy, as Democrats officially do today?
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Nicholas
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Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

Post by Nicholas »

Jason wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:53 am
Nicholas wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:33 am The notion of when life "begins" has nothing to do with killing karma. If I see a snail in front of my path and I deliberately stomp it to death; then when the snail's life began is not relevant.

For an individual human which has an almost endless series of lives, the interruption or cancelling of karma fruition, skillful or not, is the crime. When an adult human is deliberately murdered by the death penalty or any other cause, do we ponder about "when life began"? Of course not.
If it doesn't matter, would you consider someone who cracks open an egg guilty of killing?
I do not know if animals have karma or the effects of intentional, motivated actions. I doubt it, but....?

Since factory farmed chickens produce sterile eggs I believe, there would be no direct unwholesome vipaka from breaking an egg. However, indirectly millions of hens suffer from their confinement and are eventually killed for meat eaters. So there is some negative vipaka for chicken & egg eaters.
Last edited by Nicholas on Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Presto Kensho
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Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

Post by Presto Kensho »

Jason wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:30 pm
Presto Kensho wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:19 pm
Jason wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:53 pm Not radical enough. Still can't even get them to fully support universal healthcare.
Why should abortion be funded by the federal government, when half the population would strongly object to it?
I think healthcare should be universal and considered a human right. And reproductive healthcare is an aspect of healthcare and should also be universally accessible in my opinion. In essence, I don't think that only wealthy people should have the ability to get the care they want and need, whereas now many states have made it prohibitively difficult for people to get certain kinds of healthcare, with many insurance companies refusing to cover certain kinds of care. Abortion services is just one example. Birth control is another. Transgender people also have a difficult time acquiring the healthcare that they need.

In the end, I agree with lyndon taylor that "if you're against abortion, don't have an abortion." Although, to your point of being upset at federal funds going to certain things, I do wish we had a way to democratically decide where our tax dollars went. I'd certainly put most of mine towards things like education, healthcare, and green projects instead of the lion's share of it going to the military.
Abortion is not reproductive healthcare. The act of reproduction has already happened and abortion terminates children capable of feeling and experiencing pain. It's a politically correct euphemism to call abortion reproductive healthcare rather than the killing of human life.
Jason
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Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

Post by Jason »

Presto Kensho wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:49 am
Jason wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:30 pm
Presto Kensho wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:19 pm

Why should abortion be funded by the federal government, when half the population would strongly object to it?
I think healthcare should be universal and considered a human right. And reproductive healthcare is an aspect of healthcare and should also be universally accessible in my opinion. In essence, I don't think that only wealthy people should have the ability to get the care they want and need, whereas now many states have made it prohibitively difficult for people to get certain kinds of healthcare, with many insurance companies refusing to cover certain kinds of care. Abortion services is just one example. Birth control is another. Transgender people also have a difficult time acquiring the healthcare that they need.

In the end, I agree with lyndon taylor that "if you're against abortion, don't have an abortion." Although, to your point of being upset at federal funds going to certain things, I do wish we had a way to democratically decide where our tax dollars went. I'd certainly put most of mine towards things like education, healthcare, and green projects instead of the lion's share of it going to the military.
Abortion is not reproductive healthcare. The act of reproduction has already happened and abortion terminates children capable of feeling and experiencing pain. It's a politically correct euphemism to call abortion reproductive healthcare rather than the killing of human life.
That's certainly one opinion. The question is, should that opinion be imposed upon the rest of society? If so, you better make one hell of a case as to why the state should step in and force women to give birth and be prepared for the consequences of women going back to alternative and often unsafe methods of terminating pregnancies.
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Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

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DNS wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:36 am
Bundokji wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:07 am The term liberal is also associated with generosity in the sense that it allows a higher margin of freedom to the individual as long as it does not affect the freedom of other individuals. One of the aspects that makes abortion a debatable issue is to what extent a fetus can be considered an independent individual?

This rationale has reasoning behind it. Here, few distinctions can be made:

1- We have a natural bias towards our own species. Killing an individual human is more blameworthy than killing a mosquito that tries to suck our blood.
2- What makes humans independent individuals is the extent to which they act and behave reflexively. Usually, the ability to recognize oneself in the mirror is a measure of reflexivity which makes humans unique. Human infants begin to develop certain abilities indicative of self awareness at 12 months old:
From the ages of 6 to 12 months, the child typically sees a "sociable playmate" in the mirror's reflection. Self-admiring and embarrassment usually begin at 12 months, and at 14 to 20 months, most children demonstrate avoidance behaviours.[79] Finally, at 18 months, half of children recognise the reflection in the mirror as their own[80] and by 20 to 24 months, self-recognition climbs to 65%. Children do so by evincing mark-directed behaviour; they touch their own noses or try to wipe the marks off.[79]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test
The mirror test is interesting for analyzing the development and degree of consciousness in humans and other animals. There are quite a few animal species that pass the mirror test as well as many that do not. If we used this standard, clearly a fetus does not pass the test.
Bundokji wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:59 pm In the US, everything seems to be politicized these days, including abortion.
That's for sure, for example those who are anti-abortion (pro-life) are clearly the conservatives. Those who are pro-choice are the liberals/progressives. As a Buddhist and vegan, I'm opposed to all killings, human or animal. But it's rare to find someone who is both pro-life and vegan (although there are some). If you look at a fetus from sonograms, one can see that they look more like an animal than a human. For example, they have a protruding tail that eventually enters the body as the tail bone. It is virtually impossible to see a difference between a human fetus of about 1 to 2 months from another primate or other mammal.

If we ban all abortions, should killing animals (including slaughterhouses) be banned too? Most conservatives would be opposed to that, as they believe eating meat should be allowed if they so choose. Most liberals/progressives would also be opposed to that, as they are pro-choice (regarding abortions) and believe it is a woman's choice. Perhaps the only consistent ones in this regard (complete ahimsa) are the vegan pro-lifers, the few of those, that is. :tongue:

Or another consistent standard could be to be morally opposed to both (meat eating and abortion), but allowing a pro-choice method in terms of the laws. Or to find no moral violation in either and be pro-choice on both issues.
I don't know of any prominent Republican who advocates banning abortion in all circumstances, and an unborn child is capable of feeling excruciating pain regardless of how animal-like it might appear during a particular stage of fetal development.

Has anyone considered the possibility that the Democratic Party today has swung too far to the left on abortion rights and that moderates and independents should be concerned about it?

Also, what would be so wrong with individual states forming their own abortion laws, especially since Roe was a baseless legal decision to begin with?
Presto Kensho
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Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

Post by Presto Kensho »

Jason wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:57 am
Presto Kensho wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:49 am
Jason wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:30 pm

I think healthcare should be universal and considered a human right. And reproductive healthcare is an aspect of healthcare and should also be universally accessible in my opinion. In essence, I don't think that only wealthy people should have the ability to get the care they want and need, whereas now many states have made it prohibitively difficult for people to get certain kinds of healthcare, with many insurance companies refusing to cover certain kinds of care. Abortion services is just one example. Birth control is another. Transgender people also have a difficult time acquiring the healthcare that they need.

In the end, I agree with lyndon taylor that "if you're against abortion, don't have an abortion." Although, to your point of being upset at federal funds going to certain things, I do wish we had a way to democratically decide where our tax dollars went. I'd certainly put most of mine towards things like education, healthcare, and green projects instead of the lion's share of it going to the military.
Abortion is not reproductive healthcare. The act of reproduction has already happened and abortion terminates children capable of feeling and experiencing pain. It's a politically correct euphemism to call abortion reproductive healthcare rather than the killing of human life.
That's certainly one opinion. The question is, should that opinion be imposed upon the rest of society? If so, you better make one hell of a case as to why the state should step in and force women to give birth and be prepared for the consequences of women going back to alternative and often unsafe methods of terminating pregnancies.
It's not just a matter of opinion. According to biological and medical science, abortion is the taking of human life. Why should our tax dollars pay for it?
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Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

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Nicholas wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:46 am
Jason wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:53 am
Nicholas wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:33 am The notion of when life "begins" has nothing to do with killing karma. If I see a snail in front of my path and I deliberately stomp it to death; then when the snail's life began is not relevant.

For an individual human which has an almost endless series of lives, the interruption or cancelling of karma fruition, skillful or not, is the crime. When an adult human is deliberately murdered by the death penalty or any other cause, do we ponder about "when life began"? Of course not.
If it doesn't matter, would you consider someone who cracks open an egg guilty of killing?
I do not know if animals have karma or the effects of intentional, motivated actions. I doubt it, but....?

Since factory farmed chickens produce sterile eggs I believe, there would be no direct unwholesome vipaka from breaking an egg. However, indirectly millions of hens suffer from their confinement and are eventually killed for meat eaters. So there is some negative vipaka for chicken & egg eaters.
Are you sure all factory eggs are sterile? And what if someone has there own chickens and cracks one of those eggs? Or an egg from a farmers market? Are they killing or would you say that talking about the beginning of life matters in that case?
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Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

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Jason wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:53 am
Nicholas wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:33 am The notion of when life "begins" has nothing to do with killing karma. If I see a snail in front of my path and I deliberately stomp it to death; then when the snail's life began is not relevant.

For an individual human which has an almost endless series of lives, the interruption or cancelling of karma fruition, skillful or not, is the crime. When an adult human is deliberately murdered by the death penalty or any other cause, do we ponder about "when life began"? Of course not.
If it doesn't matter, would you consider someone who cracks open an egg guilty of killing?
The chicken eggs you buy at the grocery store aren't fertilized and even if they were, what does it have anything to do with human children capable of experiencing excruciating pain in the womb, and why should our tax dollars pay for the killing of the most innocent and vulnerable?
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Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

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Presto Kensho wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:04 am
Jason wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:53 am
Nicholas wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:33 am The notion of when life "begins" has nothing to do with killing karma. If I see a snail in front of my path and I deliberately stomp it to death; then when the snail's life began is not relevant.

For an individual human which has an almost endless series of lives, the interruption or cancelling of karma fruition, skillful or not, is the crime. When an adult human is deliberately murdered by the death penalty or any other cause, do we ponder about "when life began"? Of course not.
If it doesn't matter, would you consider someone who cracks open an egg guilty of killing?
The chicken eggs you buy at the grocery store aren't fertilized and even if they were, what does it have anything to do with human children capable of experiencing excruciating pain in the womb, and why should our tax dollars pay for the killing of the most innocent and vulnerable?
I'm sure you can figure out the point I'm making in that context.
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Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

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Presto Kensho wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:01 am It's not just a matter of opinion. According to biological and medical science, abortion is the taking of human life. Why should our tax dollars pay for it?
I'm curious if you could provide some reference to the medical community's consensus that abortion is murder and not considered reproductive healthcare.
Presto Kensho
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Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

Post by Presto Kensho »

Jason wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:09 am
Presto Kensho wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:01 am It's not just a matter of opinion. According to biological and medical science, abortion is the taking of human life. Why should our tax dollars pay for it?
I'm curious if you could provide some reference to the medical community's consensus that abortion is murder and not considered reproductive healthcare.
I hope you realize there's a difference between actual medical science and the personal opinions of the doctors and nurses you might meet at the hospital.
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Nicholas
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Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

Post by Nicholas »

Jason wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:02 am
Nicholas wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:46 am
Jason wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:53 am

If it doesn't matter, would you consider someone who cracks open an egg guilty of killing?
I do not know if animals have karma or the effects of intentional, motivated actions. I doubt it, but....?

Since factory farmed chickens produce sterile eggs I believe, there would be no direct unwholesome vipaka from breaking an egg. However, indirectly millions of hens suffer from their confinement and are eventually killed for meat eaters. So there is some negative vipaka for chicken & egg eaters.
Are you sure all factory eggs are sterile? And what if someone has there own chickens and cracks one of those eggs? Or an egg from a farmers market? Are they killing or would you say that talking about the beginning of life matters in that case?
Pretty sure, but do your own research.

The theme of this thread is destroying the karma continuum of a human by killing it before the first breath.

But most of the energy here seems to be debating political & social aspects, which misses the nexus of meaning.
May all seek, find and follow the Path of Buddhas.
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Nicholas
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Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

Post by Nicholas »

Do not know if the traditional view as expressed by a bodhisattva matters much. Yet here is Je Tsongkhapa from his Lamrim Chenmo on the heavier weight of karma-vipaka depending on the kind of being killed:
Killing that is weighty due to its basis is taking the life of a large animal, a human, a fetus, your parents, your aunt or uncle, someone such as a guru, a close friend etc.
May all seek, find and follow the Path of Buddhas.
Presto Kensho
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Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

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I haven't even mentioned yet how Planned Parenthood, which somehow receives federal funding despite the Hyde amendment, sells baby parts and pays employees bonuses for the number of women they convince to have abortions.

I wish this were just a matter of women having autonomy over their bodies, but Planned Parenthood and the Democratic Party have gone too far on the extreme left on abortion rights.
Jason
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Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

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Presto Kensho wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:27 am I haven't even mentioned yet how Planned Parenthood, which somehow receives federal funding despite the Hyde amendment, sells baby parts and pays employees bonuses for the number of women they convince to have abortions.
You do realize that Planned Parenthood provides other services besides abortions, right? That the vast majority of what PP actually spends its money on (97%) is providing contraception, testing and treatment for STDs, cancer screenings, and other women’s health services, serving particularly vulnerable communities and lower-income women and men? And that none of the federal money they receive goes to abortion services, right? I'm pretty sure the rest is fake news, but feel free to educate me if I'm wrong.
Last edited by Jason on Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jason
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Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

Post by Jason »

Presto Kensho wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:14 am
Jason wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:09 am
Presto Kensho wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:01 am It's not just a matter of opinion. According to biological and medical science, abortion is the taking of human life. Why should our tax dollars pay for it?
I'm curious if you could provide some reference to the medical community's consensus that abortion is murder and not considered reproductive healthcare.
I hope you realize there's a difference between actual medical science and the personal opinions of the doctors and nurses you might meet at the hospital.
Sure. Still waiting, though.
Presto Kensho
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Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

Post by Presto Kensho »

Jason wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:43 am
Presto Kensho wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:27 am I haven't even mentioned yet how Planned Parenthood, which somehow receives federal funding despite the Hyde amendment, sells baby parts and pays employees bonuses for the number of women they convince to have abortions.
You do realize that Planned Parenthood provides other services besides abortions, right? That the vast majority of what PP actually spends its money on (97%) is providing contraception, testing and treatment for STDs, cancer screenings, and other women’s health services, serving particularly vulnerable communities and lower-income women and men? And that none of the federal money they receive goes to abortion services, right? I'm pretty sure the rest is fake news, but feel free to educate me if I'm wrong.
While those might be good talking points according to political consultants, the reality remains that about half of America's abortions annually are performed by Planned Parenthood.
Last edited by Presto Kensho on Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
Jason
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Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

Post by Jason »

Presto Kensho wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:55 am
Jason wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:43 am
Presto Kensho wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:27 am I haven't even mentioned yet how Planned Parenthood, which somehow receives federal funding despite the Hyde amendment, sells baby parts and pays employees bonuses for the number of women they convince to have abortions.
You do realize that Planned Parenthood provides other services besides abortions, right? That the vast majority of what PP actually spends its money on (97%) is providing contraception, testing and treatment for STDs, cancer screenings, and other women’s health services, serving particularly vulnerable communities and lower-income women and men? And that none of the federal money they receive goes to abortion services, right? I'm pretty sure the rest is fake news, but feel free to educate me if I'm wrong.
While those might be good talking points according to political consultants, the reality remains that about half of America's abortions annually are performed by Planned Parenthood.
And?
Presto Kensho
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Re: Abortion & Ahimsa

Post by Presto Kensho »

Jason wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:57 am
Presto Kensho wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:55 am
Jason wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:43 am

You do realize that Planned Parenthood provides other services besides abortions, right? That the vast majority of what PP actually spends its money on (97%) is providing contraception, testing and treatment for STDs, cancer screenings, and other women’s health services, serving particularly vulnerable communities and lower-income women and men? And that none of the federal money they receive goes to abortion services, right? I'm pretty sure the rest is fake news, but feel free to educate me if I'm wrong.
While those might be good talking points according to political consultants, the reality remains that about half of America's abortions annually are performed by Planned Parenthood.
And?
Even if federal funding isn't spent by Planned Parenthood on abortion, the fact that they receive any federal funding at all means they are freer to spend private donations and state taxes on abortions.

Why should an entity which sells baby parts and pays employees bonuses for abortions performed receive any federal tax dollars for any reason? If the KKK provided free condoms and pap smears, would you want it to be federally funded?
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