Should Capitalism be outgrown?

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events, politics and economics.
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by Kim O'Hara » Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:53 am

:thumb:
“Trickle-down theory - the less than elegant metaphor that if one feeds the horse enough oats, some will pass through to the road for the sparrows.”

― John Kenneth Galbraith
:coffee:
Kim

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fwiw
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw » Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:58 am

Here is from my favorite propaganda outlet, an argument I have heard from some of our fellow participants here

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Here is an interesting response to it:

Counting the Bodies - Noam Chomsky
http://www.spectrezine.org/global/chomsky.html
Overcoming amnesia, suppose we now apply the methodology of the Black Book and its reviewers to the full story, not just the doctrinally acceptable half. We therefore conclude that in India the democratic capitalist "experiment" since 1947 has caused more deaths than in the entire history of the "colossal, wholly failed...experiment" of Communism everywhere since 1917: over 100 million deaths by 1979, tens of millions more since, in India alone. The "criminal indictment" of the "democratic capitalist experiment" becomes harsher still if we turn to its effects after the fall of Communism: millions of corpses in Russia, to take one case, as Russia followed the confident prescription of the World Bank that "Countries that liberalise rapidly and extensively turn around more quickly [than those that do not]," returning to something like what it had been before World War I, a picture familiar throughout the "third world." But "you can't make an omelette without broken eggs," as Stalin would have said. The indictment becomes far harsher if we consider these vast areas that remained under Western tutelage, yielding a truly "colossal" record of skeletons and "absolutely futile, pointless and inexplicable suffering" (Ryan). The indictment takes on further force when we add to the account the countries devastated by the direct assaults of Western power, and its clients, during the same years.
He concludes:
To make myself clear, I am not expressing my judgements; rather those that follow from the principles that are employed to establish preferred truths -- or that would follow, if doctrinal filters could be removed.
And he does not even mention all the deaths linked to capitalist exploitation of "overseas" territories during the colonial period.


Condemn communists’ cruelties, but capitalism has its own terrible record
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... omic-model
Even when the international slave trade began to crumble, the blood money of colonialism enriched western capitalism. India was long ruled by Britain, the world’s pre-eminent capitalist power: as Mike Davis’s Late Victorian Holocausts explores, up to 35 million Indians perished in needless famines as millions of tonnes of wheat was exported to Britain in times of starvation. Here was a cash cow for British capitalism, becoming the country’s main source of revenue by the end of the 19th century. The west is built on wealth stolen from the subjugated, at immense human cost.
... in my opinion

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DNS
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by DNS » Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:55 pm

Colonialism is not capitalist. It can be mostly capitalist or mostly socialist, but it is not inherently capitalist. Socialism / communism is however, inherently colonialist, imperialist, as it wishes to impose its values on the world, at whatever cost, even to killing millions, as seen from history.

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fwiw
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw » Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:27 pm

DNS wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:55 pm
Colonialism is not capitalist. It can be mostly capitalist or mostly socialist, but it is not inherently capitalist. Socialism / communism is however, inherently colonialist, imperialist, as it wishes to impose its values on the world, at whatever cost, even to killing millions, as seen from history.
Repeating ad nauseam that socialism / communism is bad in the face of every last criticism of capitalism tells us nothing about whether the latter should be improved or regulated or morphed into something better.

The inherent assumption seems to be that the only alternative to the current status quo is chaos and death. That is actually what the most corrupt statespersons tell their constituents when they become increasingly angry at their policies
... in my opinion

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fwiw
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw » Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:16 pm

And the irony of all this is that greed, the power engine of capitalism, which all Buddhists know to be the cause of suffering, is precisely what is sending us fast towards chaos and death. We need to lower our energy consumption until we hopefully find true clean energy like nuclear fusion. If we don't, we endanger ourselves and many other species because we are too scared to even question the status quo.
... in my opinion

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by DNS » Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:56 pm

fwiw wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:27 pm
Repeating ad nauseam that socialism / communism is bad in the face of every last criticism of capitalism tells us nothing about whether the latter should be improved or regulated or morphed into something better.

The inherent assumption seems to be that the only alternative to the current status quo is chaos and death. That is actually what the most corrupt statespersons tell their constituents when they become increasingly angry at their policies
And . . . .

Repeating ad nauseam that capitalism is bad in the face of every last criticism of socialism tells us nothing about whether the latter should be improved or regulated or morphed into something better.

The inherent assumption seems to be that the only alternative to the current status quo is chaos and death. That is actually what the most corrupt statespersons tell their constituents when they become increasingly angry at their policies

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by DNS » Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:59 pm

fwiw wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:16 pm
And the irony of all this is that greed, the power engine of capitalism, which all Buddhists know to be the cause of suffering, is precisely what is sending us fast towards chaos and death. We need to lower our energy consumption until we hopefully find true clean energy like nuclear fusion. If we don't, we endanger ourselves and many other species because we are too scared to even question the status quo.
It can be, but a capitalist will typically go out of business if he focuses on greed. If a restaurant starts doubling their prices out of greed, not actual costs, customers will go to another restaurant where the prices are reasonable. Capitalism forces businesses to be altruistic, to listen to their customers' wishes, what they like, and what makes them happy.

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fwiw
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw » Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:22 pm

DNS wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:56 pm
Repeating ad nauseam that capitalism is bad in the face of every last criticism of socialism tells us nothing about whether the latter should be improved or regulated or morphed into something better.
You are making a false equivalence, David. If you want to start a thread about whether we should abandon communism, please do so. Here it is kind of off topic, in my view at least
... in my opinion

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fwiw
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw » Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:24 pm

DNS wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:59 pm
It can be, but a capitalist will typically go out of business if he focuses on greed. If a restaurant starts doubling their prices out of greed, not actual costs, customers will go to another restaurant where the prices are reasonable.
You know there are many other ways to get rich unethically, right?


Capitalism forces businesses to be altruistic
Can you demonstrate this? I don't see how it is even remotely true


to listen to their customers' wishes, what they like, and what makes them happy.
Even if that involves using near-slave labor on the other side of the planet
... in my opinion

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by DNS » Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:28 pm


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fwiw
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw » Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:18 am

Media Bias Fact Check: PragerU
Overall, we rate PragerU Questionable based on extreme right wing bias, promotion of propaganda, the use of poor sources who have failed fact checks and the publication of misleading information regarding immigration and climate change.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/prageru/

As is usual with propaganda, this video shows only the convenient part. For example, it makes it sound like there is only greed on the short term, little notion of greed on the long term

It would be interesting to know what you personally think, not a known propaganda outlet's talking points. Or should we understand that those are actually one and the same?
... in my opinion

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by DNS » Sat Nov 30, 2019 4:51 pm

fwiw wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:18 am
Media Bias Fact Check: PragerU

As is usual with propaganda, this video shows only the convenient part. For example, it makes it sound like there is only greed on the short term, little notion of greed on the long term

It would be interesting to know what you personally think, not a known propaganda outlet's talking points. Or should we understand that those are actually one and the same?
guilt-by-association fallacy, false-equivalence

I have not watched all Prager videos, they may be good, they may be bad, some might be biased, but that has no bearing on the video I posted. That one is good and I agree with that one since it's true.

A business that engages in greed is doomed to fail. That is why as that video noted a very high percentage of businesses fail, because the owner(s) get too greedy. The successful ones are compassionate and altruistic. They listen to what their customers want. People get employed and there is less poverty. I'm not saying capitalism is perfect, but in general the system hires the most people and has low poverty, when properly regulated in a mixed economy.

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fwiw
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw » Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:33 pm

DNS wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 4:51 pm
I have not watched all Prager videos, they may be good, they may be bad, some might be biased, but that has no bearing on the video I posted. That one is good and I agree with that one since it's true.
Maybe I have not made myself clear enough in conceding that much in my last post. But, as I said, it focuses only on the convenient topics, that is entrepreneurs and their clients, omitting the fate of workers. I have already pointed out that capitalism often offers workers the worst possible deals. Walmart has already organized food donation campaigns for their own workers, instead of paying them a decent wage and pocketing a little less of their astronomical profits

A business that engages in greed is doomed to fail.
Perhaps, if like Prager, you resort to a convenient interpretation of "greed". But if you listen to the godfather of modern capitalism, Milton Friedman, he was a lot clearer about greed being the engine on which capitalism runs, going as far as claiming there is no society that runs on anything else than greed



The successful ones are compassionate and altruistic.
Amazon is compassionate and altruistic? Monsanto? Lockheed Martin?

They listen to what their customers want.
And what if, like Saudi Arabia, they want weapons to perform a genocide?

People get employed and there is less poverty. I'm not saying capitalism is perfect, but in general the system hires the most people and has low poverty, when properly regulated in a mixed economy.
Capitalism is creating artificial needs that are set to have a huge impact on our planet. A system based on greed and perpetual growth cannot be sustainable in a finite environment.
... in my opinion

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by DNS » Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:42 pm

fwiw wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:33 pm
Amazon is compassionate and altruistic? Monsanto? Lockheed Martin?
A few examples wouldn't generalize to all of them. But Amazon was one of the first large companies to pay all their employees at least $15 per hour.
Defense contracting and the military industrial complex is a different issue. The socialists and communists engage in military spending too, actually quite a bit to say the least.
And what if, like Saudi Arabia, they want weapons to perform a genocide?
See my response above, military spending is a different issue and one in which I am opposed to, in large amounts that is. I'm opposed to giving weapons to nations that engage in genocide or even giving any nation weapons for that matter. That is just empire building like the USSR and other nations have done.

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by DNS » Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:42 pm

fwiw wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:33 pm
Capitalism is creating artificial needs that are set to have a huge impact on our planet. A system based on greed and perpetual growth cannot be sustainable in a finite environment.
Actually, capitalism is helping there too. Numerous green industries have formed, helping to create sustainable energy and preserve our planet. Solar industries, tesla, etc, too many to name.

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by lyndon taylor » Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:54 am

someones drinking the kool-aid again!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk.

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by DNS » Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:07 am

lyndon taylor wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:54 am
someones drinking the kool-aid again!!
:D

No, just some good tasting, free trade, fair trade coffee. :tongue:

:coffee:

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fwiw
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw » Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:41 am

Republicans have moved in to solve a failure of the free market, much like when people in northern Spain decided to move in and create Mondragon, one of the very successful coops in Europe


... in my opinion

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by DNS » Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:12 pm

fwiw wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:41 am
Republicans have moved in to solve a failure of the free market, much like when people in northern Spain decided to move in and create Mondragon, one of the very successful coops in Europe
That city only has 1,600 people, so the big stores probably didn't want to open in such a small city, so the people organized and opened a coop. Good for them! That is the great thing about capitalism and the free market. It doesn't preclude that from happening and if the coop is more successful, then so be it. :thumb:

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fwiw
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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw » Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:18 pm

I don't think it is a coop in this case. It is a government-run grocery store, in socialist fashion. And it's working
... in my opinion

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