Should Capitalism be outgrown?

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by DNS » Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:51 pm

fwiw wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:18 pm
I don't think it is a coop in this case. It is a government-run grocery store, in socialist fashion. And it's working
Okay, cool, still good, in my opinion. Capitalism and free market does not preclude that either. A true free market allows competition. It's a small town, we'll see if the practice catches on in other cities. And if it performs better, I have no issue with that either.

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw » Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:57 pm

Mayor of the town speaking
Screenshot_2019-12-01_20-56-09.png
Screenshot_2019-12-01_20-56-09.png (48.28 KiB) Viewed 1884 times

That's the spirit. Even Trump voters get it, provided they are personally faced with the problem
... just my opinion, for what it's worth

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by Ceisiwr » Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:30 pm

I don’t know if this has been said or not already but, worker co-ops are still capitalist. What Wolff pushes for are worker owned businesses working working a capitalist framework. There is still production of commodities for exchange to be sold on a market, profit, wages and capital accumulation.

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:47 pm

Here's an interview with the author of: "Why Women Have Better Sex Under Socialism".
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programm ... -socialism
As Kristen Ghodsee notes, in the US the term Socialism is totally polarizing, as we've seen with the talking-past-each-other in this thread. As she points out, if various social services and government ownerships in, say, Scandanavian countries are brought up, then the response is "but those are still capitalist countries". But if it is then suggested that perhaps free health care and child care should be considered, then those suddenly become "socialist"... :tongue:

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by DNS » Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:58 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:47 pm
As she points out, if various social services and government ownerships in, say, Scandanavian countries are brought up, then the response is "but those are still capitalist countries". But if it is then suggested that perhaps free health care and child care should be considered, then those suddenly become "socialist"... :tongue:
Yes and when they say that, they look hypocritical. They are wrong. Those nations are capitalist. The problem lies in seeing everything in black-and-white. In reality there is a spectrum from far left to far right. The Scandinavian nations are still capitalist, however, they are more left than the U.S. and many other nations. But this doesn't make them socialist, just more leftist than most. What they should say, is that they don't want to go further in that direction, not calling them "socialists."

Image

For example, in the above spectrum, the U.S. is around the GOP elephant point. Western Europe is to the left of that and Scandinavia is further left, but still not at the far left by any means. They might be around the N or T in "GOVERNMENT (last N).

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:13 am

So what would actually qualify as socialist in your mind David? Free health, child care, government ownership of many businesses is all just "capitalist"?

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by DNS » Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:37 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:13 am
So what would actually qualify as socialist in your mind David? Free health, child care, government ownership of many businesses is all just "capitalist"?
No one factor can be used, but the means of production and private property rights rank high in determining if a nation is capitalist, mostly capitalist, mostly socialist, or socialist.

Here is a typical definition of the difference and Europe fits into capitalism with this definition. Safety nets are fine and fit into capitalism.
Functionally, socialism and free-market capitalism can be divided on property rights and control of production. In a capitalist economy, private individuals and enterprises own the means of production and the right to profit from them; private property rights are taken very seriously and apply to nearly everything. In a socialist economy, the government owns and controls the means of production; personal property is sometimes allowed, but only in the form of consumer goods.
Here is an economic freedom scale by one organization and note the Scandinavian countries still rank high in economic freedom.

Sweden #19
Finland #20
Norway #26
https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

New Zealand #3 :o
Capitalist :pig: s :tongue:

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:38 pm

OK, well, arguments about whether certain things are "socialism", or, simply "big government" (ownership or strong regulation of key services by the government) or "safety nets" (free or subsidised social services, including medical care) are not particularly interesting, but I would point out that in Europe it is common for centre-left parties that call themselves "social democrat"...

The main point of the interview (and the book) was that, unsurprisingly, "socialist" policies such as cheap child care and stability of income, contributed to perceived quality of life. I would note that my colleagues who have immigrated here from Scandinavia (or lived there for a time) are amazed how expensive child care is here. Child care is a key factor allowing women, in particular, to maintain careers, which presumably helps to explains historically higher number of females in areas such as science in "socialist" countries (this has, of course, changed a lot in the West in recent decades).

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by DNS » Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:15 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:38 pm
OK, well, arguments about whether certain things are "socialism", or, simply "big government" (ownership or strong regulation of key services by the government) or "safety nets" (free or subsidised social services, including medical care) are not particularly interesting, but I would point out that in Europe it is common for centre-left parties that call themselves "social democrat"...
There are political parties called "liberal" or even "labour" but when you examine their positions, they are more centrist or even centre-right. The name doesn't change their actual positions.
The main point of the interview (and the book) was that, unsurprisingly, "socialist" policies such as cheap child care and stability of income, contributed to perceived quality of life. I would note that my colleagues who have immigrated here from Scandinavia (or lived there for a time) are amazed how expensive child care is here. Child care is a key factor allowing women, in particular, to maintain careers, which presumably helps to explains historically higher number of females in areas such as science in "socialist" countries (this has, of course, changed a lot in the West in recent decades).
I think there could be other sociological factors at play. For example, socialists tend to be atheist or agnostic. The cultural tendency to see men as superior comes from culture, religion, other historical events. Atheists and agnostics are less likely to buy into that male chauvinism.

Now in the developed countries, that chauvinism is fading away, regardless if the country is centre-left or centre-right.

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:36 pm

DNS wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:15 pm
I think there could be other sociological factors at play. For example, socialists tend to be atheist or agnostic. The cultural tendency to see men as superior comes from culture, religion, other historical events. Atheists and agnostics are less likely to buy into that male chauvinism.
Yes, that's certainly another factor.
DNS wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:15 pm
Now in the developed countries, that chauvinism is fading away, regardless if the country is centre-left or centre-right.
Thankfully. When I was young there was a prevalent message that doing science (or any career) was a waste of time for women as they would just have to quit to look after children. That's where that socialist idea of providing child care is so enabling.

The attitudes still exists though, and we see a 21st C version of "girls would rather play with dolls" in the form of "women don't really like STEM subjects" :rolleye:

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by No_Mind » Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:00 am

I tried to read most of the previous, but not all. I have a very idealistic solution.

There are three fundamental questions that economics tries to solve -

What to produce?
Given 1000 acres of land, should we build a steel plant, a township, grow corn, or use it for grazing sheep.
How to produce?
If there are four different technologies available for steel plants, which should be used.
For whom to produce?
The steel that is produced - how much to use for making surgical tools and how much for skyscrapers.

Capitalism is the only way (maybe not by itself but through a mix of capitalism and government the so-called public-private-partnership) that solves the above perfectly (as opposed to Communism, which was a total failure at answering these three questions).

However, two things have emerged as an obstacle.

1. International trade - If using 10 units of labor USA can produce 15 eggs OR 120 bullets, and Germany can produce 25 eggs OR 105 bullets, then Germany should export eggs and import bullets to/from the US.

2. Mass production - Starting with Ford Model T, the more that is produced, the less the cost since the overheads for administration, advertising, R and D, and even resource procurement go down.

Both of them were okay till about 1970. But no one imagined that it could assume such drastic proportions.

It led to the creation of the mega-rich and there are now 2153 billionaires with US$8.7 trillion total net worth. Also led to more being spent on putting more cameras on a cell phone and building thinner laptops than inventing a device which would filter water easily and a medicine that could cure cancer.

How to keep the benefits of capitalism but curtail the excesses? Limit personal wealth to $500 million. Abolish banks in Cayman and Switzerland. Anyone with a net worth above $100 million will have to park the excess $400 million in government debt (of say 50 nations approved by the UN) and not be able to buy equity.

The excess wealth that is confiscated (above $500 million) would be in the hands of a global bank/fund that would apportion it to universities for research, investment in clean green energy, fighting diseases, spread of education. The more number of universities that carry out valuable research, the more we gain.

Private firms would be allowed to have R and D to attach 48 MP cameras to cell phones and the other idiotic stuff they like to do for past two decades but would not have the resources since owners are stuck at $500 million net worth and $100 million of liquid cash.

Basically, reset the whole global economy back to 1950.

All companies making useless stuff like thin laptops, 500 PPI cell phone screens and providing services like social media would shut down instantly.

Something is very wrong in a world where GE has market cap of $95 billion, Facebook $570 billion and Apple $1200 billion.

GE produces power plants, MRI machines, turbines, aviation engines, and nearly everything.
Facebook .. does nothing.
Apple sells cell phones for $1000 that Xiaomi sells for $250.

When the most used painkiller in the world (acetaminophen) is 126 years old, and all four top pharma companies have ceased R and D into antibiotics but focus on diabetes and lifestyle diseases (which is caused due to unhealthy food produced by companies owned by other super-rich folk) it is time that we have revolutionary structural changes.

:namaste:

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw » Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:01 am

Sailors rebel on the yacht of a great French fortune (via google translate)
Ah, how sweet life is on a yacht. Well, except when the ship's personnel can no longer stand their working conditions. L’Oeil du 20h tells the story of a social mutiny on the deck of one of the largest French fortunes.

The 59 meters of Idol are no longer allowed to leave the port of Ajaccio. Philippe Frasse-Mathon is the former captain of this yacht, owned by Thomas Leclercq. This wealthy man in his 50s, a lover of pretty cars, is above all one of the sons of the founder of Décathlon, the favorite brand of the French.

Since the end of the summer, the son of the country's 16th fortune has had his Idol confiscated: justice seized him, as a precaution, after the captain and part of the crew attacked the prud men company owner of the ship. In question ? The galley-slave schedules imposed on sailors and noted by the captain. 105 hours of work in one week, for € 3.40 an hour

"We were largely off the mark, that is to say that we amply exceeded the authorized limit, denounces Philippe Frasse-Mathon, who spent seven months at the head of the yacht. Too many hours of work, it's clear that it jeopardizes the safety of the ship, the passengers, the crew. "

We got the schedules for the crew members from the Philippines. Here are the schedules of one of these sailors, for example. Between June 24 and 30: 105 hours of service in one week! In his contract, under Philippine law, the weekly working time is however clearly indicated: 48 hours.

Longer days, and not a single day of rest throughout the month of July for the six Filipinos on the yacht. Net salary ? € 1,250 monthly for a crew chief. Or € 3.40 an hour, not even half the minimum wage…

We are just crew members fighting for their rights A former Filipino crew member We joined one of these sailors who returned to the Philippines after going to French courts. "It's really hard to get up that early in the morning, sleep only 4 or 5 hours a night and have to work 14 hours a day," he recalls. It was really mental pressure for the entire Filipino crew because you know, Mr. Leclercq is a powerful man and we are just crew members fighting for their rights. "
... just my opinion, for what it's worth

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by lyndon taylor » Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:09 pm

a good example of how the wealthy get rich and keep their riches!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk.

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by lyndon taylor » Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:15 pm

DNS wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:58 am
mikenz66 wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:47 pm
As she points out, if various social services and government ownerships in, say, Scandanavian countries are brought up, then the response is "but those are still capitalist countries". But if it is then suggested that perhaps free health care and child care should be considered, then those suddenly become "socialist"... :tongue:
Yes and when they say that, they look hypocritical. They are wrong. Those nations are capitalist. The problem lies in seeing everything in black-and-white. In reality there is a spectrum from far left to far right. The Scandinavian nations are still capitalist, however, they are more left than the U.S. and many other nations. But this doesn't make them socialist, just more leftist than most. What they should say, is that they don't want to go further in that direction, not calling them "socialists."

Image

For example, in the above spectrum, the U.S. is around the GOP elephant point. Western Europe is to the left of that and Scandinavia is further left, but still not at the far left by any means. They might be around the N or T in "GOVERNMENT (last N).
total BS graph, for instance the 1942 Nazi party is closer to the current GOP than democrats!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk.

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by DNS » Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:14 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:15 pm
total BS graph, for instance the 1942 Nazi party is closer to the current GOP than democrats!!
I don't agree with the bias of the graph, I just was looking for a political spectrum (left to right) graph to post for my post above, explaining how nearly all nations are capitalist, just at different points on the spectrum.

Also, I don't agree that the 2018 Democrats are in line with Communists, totalitarians, etc; now that's definitely going too far in that political bias of the people who made that graph.

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by DNS » Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:21 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:09 pm
a good example of how the wealthy get rich and keep their riches!!
Nah, it's just a bad boy who inherited his riches and is exploiting his workers; which certainly wouldn't extrapolate to all people who own a business.

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw » Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:29 pm

DNS wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:21 pm
Nah, it's just a bad boy who inherited his riches and is exploiting his workers; which certainly wouldn't extrapolate to all people who own a business.
No, just to Amazon, McDonalds, Apple, Kmart, Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Sears, Xerox, Samsung, Nestlé, Woolworths, Walmart, Union Pacific, Nike, H&M, Hertz, Kraft Heinz, Genesis Healthcare, Family Dollar, Zara, The Fresh Market, Chevron, Caterpillar, Tyson Foods... and these are just a few among the worst. The full list of businesses exploiting their workers would include almost every major capitalist enterprise
... just my opinion, for what it's worth

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by Ceisiwr » Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:29 pm

fwiw wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:29 pm
DNS wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:21 pm
Nah, it's just a bad boy who inherited his riches and is exploiting his workers; which certainly wouldn't extrapolate to all people who own a business.
No, just to Amazon, McDonalds, Apple, Kmart, Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Sears, Xerox, Samsung, Nestlé, Woolworths, Walmart, Union Pacific, Nike, H&M, Hertz, Kraft Heinz, Genesis Healthcare, Family Dollar, Zara, The Fresh Market, Chevron, Caterpillar, Tyson Foods... and these are just a few among the worst. The full list of businesses exploiting their workers would include almost every major capitalist enterprise


How do major capitalist enterprises “exploit” their workers?

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by Ceisiwr » Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:30 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:00 am
I tried to read most of the previous, but not all. I have a very idealistic solution.

There are three fundamental questions that economics tries to solve -

What to produce?
Given 1000 acres of land, should we build a steel plant, a township, grow corn, or use it for grazing sheep.
How to produce?
If there are four different technologies available for steel plants, which should be used.
For whom to produce?
The steel that is produced - how much to use for making surgical tools and how much for skyscrapers.

Capitalism is the only way (maybe not by itself but through a mix of capitalism and government the so-called public-private-partnership) that solves the above perfectly (as opposed to Communism, which was a total failure at answering these three questions).

However, two things have emerged as an obstacle.

1. International trade - If using 10 units of labor USA can produce 15 eggs OR 120 bullets, and Germany can produce 25 eggs OR 105 bullets, then Germany should export eggs and import bullets to/from the US.

2. Mass production - Starting with Ford Model T, the more that is produced, the less the cost since the overheads for administration, advertising, R and D, and even resource procurement go down.

Both of them were okay till about 1970. But no one imagined that it could assume such drastic proportions.

It led to the creation of the mega-rich and there are now 2153 billionaires with US$8.7 trillion total net worth. Also led to more being spent on putting more cameras on a cell phone and building thinner laptops than inventing a device which would filter water easily and a medicine that could cure cancer.

How to keep the benefits of capitalism but curtail the excesses? Limit personal wealth to $500 million. Abolish banks in Cayman and Switzerland. Anyone with a net worth above $100 million will have to park the excess $400 million in government debt (of say 50 nations approved by the UN) and not be able to buy equity.

The excess wealth that is confiscated (above $500 million) would be in the hands of a global bank/fund that would apportion it to universities for research, investment in clean green energy, fighting diseases, spread of education. The more number of universities that carry out valuable research, the more we gain.

Private firms would be allowed to have R and D to attach 48 MP cameras to cell phones and the other idiotic stuff they like to do for past two decades but would not have the resources since owners are stuck at $500 million net worth and $100 million of liquid cash.

Basically, reset the whole global economy back to 1950.

All companies making useless stuff like thin laptops, 500 PPI cell phone screens and providing services like social media would shut down instantly.

Something is very wrong in a world where GE has market cap of $95 billion, Facebook $570 billion and Apple $1200 billion.

GE produces power plants, MRI machines, turbines, aviation engines, and nearly everything.
Facebook .. does nothing.
Apple sells cell phones for $1000 that Xiaomi sells for $250.

When the most used painkiller in the world (acetaminophen) is 126 years old, and all four top pharma companies have ceased R and D into antibiotics but focus on diabetes and lifestyle diseases (which is caused due to unhealthy food produced by companies owned by other super-rich folk) it is time that we have revolutionary structural changes.

:namaste:


Confiscating wealth is just a nice way of saying “theft”.

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Re: Should Capitalism be outgrown?

Post by fwiw » Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:49 pm

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:29 pm
fwiw wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:29 pm
DNS wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:21 pm
Nah, it's just a bad boy who inherited his riches and is exploiting his workers; which certainly wouldn't extrapolate to all people who own a business.
No, just to Amazon, McDonalds, Apple, Kmart, Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Sears, Xerox, Samsung, Nestlé, Woolworths, Walmart, Union Pacific, Nike, H&M, Hertz, Kraft Heinz, Genesis Healthcare, Family Dollar, Zara, The Fresh Market, Chevron, Caterpillar, Tyson Foods... and these are just a few among the worst. The full list of businesses exploiting their workers would include almost every major capitalist enterprise


How do major capitalist enterprises “exploit” their workers?
Seriously?
... just my opinion, for what it's worth

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