Europe is for Europeans, says Dalai Lama

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Europe is for Europeans, says Dalai Lama

Post by DNS » Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:44 pm

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... urned.html
The Dalai Lama has warned that Europe could become 'Muslim or African' if refugees who have been taken in are not then sent back to their home countries.
When asked what should happen to those who want to stay in their adopted countries, he replied: 'A limited number is OK. But the whole of Europe [will] eventually become Muslim country - impossible. Or African country, also impossible.'
Thoughts?

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Re: Europe is for Europeans, says Dalai Lama

Post by Bundokji » Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:08 pm

I think the Dalai Lama is echoing the sentiment shared by many Europeans that Muslim immigration is a long term threat to stability and demographic balance in Europe.

However, such suggestions will face a lot of practicle difficulties. Is he talking about about future refugees? or the ones who already live in Europe and hold European citizenship? Will the sending back of refugees become a systematic policy based on race and religion? and how can this be inline with Europeans values post world wars? and how this mindset caused disasters in the past resulting in establishing a Jewish state in the Middle East? Should Europeans take back the Jews immigrated from Europe due to antisemitism considering they lived in Europe for centuries during the diaspora?

And will Europe and the west stop interfering in the Middle East and cause instability? to what extent their interference in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and now Iran resulted (and will continue to result) in waves of refugees reaching their lands and destroying their own culture?
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.

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Re: Europe is for Europeans, says Dalai Lama

Post by Polar Bear » Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:01 am

I basically agree. I think the US and Europe should initiate some kind of Marshall Plan for the Middle East to rebuild it, creating new infrastructure, building schools and hospitals, providing education etc. If we have to work with oppressive dictatorships, fine, much better than the alternative of endless war and countless dead and cities and civilizations laid waste to and turned to rubble. We also need to cool down the North and South Poles through geoengineering or there will be hordes of refugees coming shortly. We need to start reflecting sunlight back into space over the poles NOW!!!

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Re: Europe is for Europeans, says Dalai Lama

Post by Polar Bear » Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:17 am

DNS wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:44 pm


Thoughts?
What are your thoughts on the subject David?

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Re: Europe is for Europeans, says Dalai Lama

Post by Bundokji » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:11 pm

The statement also said comments in which he said refugees in the European Union should ultimately return home "may have been misinterpreted."

"He certainly appreciates that many of those who leave their countries may not wish or be able to return," it said,
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.

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Re: Europe is for Europeans, says Dalai Lama

Post by DNS » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:24 pm

Polar Bear wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:17 am
What are your thoughts on the subject David?
I'm naturally biased toward being pro-immigration, pro-refugees. My recent ancestors fled pogroms and Nazi Germany to come to the U.S.

Even though Donald Trump's mother was born in Scotland, making him only a second generation American, I don't think he should be deported. :tongue:

For some refugees, it is very dangerous for them to return. For others there are no economic opportunities where they are fleeing from and if the U.S. (or Europe) needs workers anyway, why not let them in, within reason of course.

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Re: Europe is for Europeans, says Dalai Lama

Post by DNS » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:25 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:11 pm
The statement also said comments in which he said refugees in the European Union should ultimately return home "may have been misinterpreted."
"He certainly appreciates that many of those who leave their countries may not wish or be able to return," it said,
Yes, hopefully that's a misinterpretation, after all he's a refugee, himself.

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Re: Europe is for Europeans, says Dalai Lama

Post by Polar Bear » Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:39 am

DNS wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:24 pm
Polar Bear wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:17 am
What are your thoughts on the subject David?
I'm naturally biased toward being pro-immigration, pro-refugees. My recent ancestors fled pogroms and Nazi Germany to come to the U.S.

Even though Donald Trump's mother was born in Scotland, making him only a second generation American, I don't think he should be deported. :tongue:

For some refugees, it is very dangerous for them to return. For others there are no economic opportunities where they are fleeing from and if the U.S. (or Europe) needs workers anyway, why not let them in, within reason of course.
Thanks for your thoughts, glad your (I’m assuming) grandparents made it out alive. Putting initial pro-refugee or (mostly) locals-only biases aside, I wonder what a utilitarian solution would look like. Is there a point at which letting refugees in to a country causes more humans to suffer in the long run, perhaps through political destabilization, terrorism from locals and refugees alike, and with enough refugees a serious strain on resources for everybody? Or encourages a lack of willingness on the part of the peoples of the earth to fight for their rights and their lands and instead to just flee wherever is convenient which eventually leads to civilizational collapse?

And then of course there’s the consideration of whether people with specific different cultures will be able to mesh with each other. There’s the whole idea of a 1,000 year Clash of Civilizations going on between Islam and the West, which various people from all the Abrahamic religions and from other religions or none seem to think is a thing. I don’t know for sure if it is a thing, but I’ll admit I am uncomfortable with the spread of Islam outside of the Middle East and North Africa. But this discomfort is not a sufficient basis to determine whether millions of people should be forcibly returned to places they don’t want to be, or worse, left out at sea to die or find their own way back to a port that’ll accept them.

As far as the US of America is concerned, I don’t really have any locals only bias against central and South Americans. Let em’ in unless there is some legitimate and fact based concern about horrific consequences, which I don’t believe there is right now. But I do think climate change could bring such a disastrous quantity of refugees to North America in the future if we don’t refreeze the poles ASAP.

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Re: Europe is for Europeans, says Dalai Lama

Post by Polar Bear » Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:04 am

I suppose I should say, even though it maybe goes without saying, that if refugees aren’t such a threat to a society that it outweighs the good of aiding them, then it’s obvious we should let them in and take care of them. Hence I only posted questions above relating to whether there is some point at which it is better not to take in refugees.

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Re: Europe is for Europeans, says Dalai Lama

Post by DNS » Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:51 pm

I think that's reasonable. Even the most liberal, pro-immigration position would still have to draw the line at some point, to use an extreme example, something like 3 million people coming across the border and at a time when employment is scarce, unemployment high.

Other times, however, especially when that is not an issue and certain jobs are needed to be filled, then a more open-door policy could be used.

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Re: Europe is for Europeans, says Dalai Lama

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:14 am

Polar Bear wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:39 am
And then of course there’s the consideration of whether people with specific different cultures will be able to mesh with each other. There’s the whole idea of a 1,000 year Clash of Civilizations going on between Islam and the West, which various people from all the Abrahamic religions and from other religions or none seem to think is a thing. I don’t know for sure if it is a thing, but I’ll admit I am uncomfortable with the spread of Islam outside of the Middle East and North Africa.
Umm, you are a bit late there... Muslim populations by country:
Indonesia, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Nigeria,
Egypt, Iran, Turkey, ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country#Table

In New Zealand our founding document involves two cultures, an 1840 treaty between Queen Victoria and the Māori inhabitants who had been here most of a millenium before Europeans "discovered" my country... That makes the issues completely different from the UK and Europe. There isn't an original culture to preserve.

[The same could be said of Australia and the Americas, but sadly most of the locals were wiped out and/or completely marginalized in those places...]

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Re: Europe is for Europeans, says Dalai Lama

Post by Polar Bear » Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:48 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:14 am

Umm, you are a bit late there... Muslim populations by country:
Indonesia, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Nigeria,
Egypt, Iran, Turkey, ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country#Table

In New Zealand our founding document involves two cultures, an 1840 treaty between Queen Victoria and the Māori inhabitants who had been here most of a millenium before Europeans "discovered" my country... That makes the issues completely different from the UK and Europe. There isn't an original culture to preserve.

[The same could be said of Australia and the Americas, but sadly most of the locals were wiped out and/or completely marginalized in those places...]

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Mike
I’m not late, my discomfort (which is a feeling) with the spread of Islam outside the Middle East and North Africa is not dependent on it having not already spread outside that area. But anyway, I don’t have any intentions of doing much of anything to deter the spread of Islam except not becoming Muslim myself, and perhaps more indirectly donating to charities that provide education in Muslim countries. But if I had to imagine a cooler world Iran would be Zoroastrian, Indonesia would be Hindu, and Pakistan and Afghanistan would still be Buddhist. Ultimately, these are silly things to think about though. I hope that Muslims around the world are slowly secularized through education and that all the Abrahamic religions slowly and voluntarily fade into non-existence over the next couple centuries. And hopefully in the mean time the evangelical Christians and the Apocalyptic Muslims don’t get there big end-times war that they mistakenly believe will herald a new era of divine rule.

I know you’re sensitive or concerned about anti-Islam sentiment since that idiot-psycho in New Zealand killed a bunch of Muslim immigrants. In a sense I’d like to kill Islam, but without killing any people. But again, this will take centuries of education and non-Muslims being non-violent and pleasantly civilized towards Muslims. Nothing strengthens Abrahamic religious belief like persecution (think of early Christianity for example, or “prophet” Mohammed’s wars of retaliation against the persecutory Meccans).


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Re: Europe is for Europeans, says Dalai Lama

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:01 pm

Polar Bear wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:48 pm
I know you’re sensitive or concerned about anti-Islam sentiment since that idiot-psycho in New Zealand killed a bunch of Muslim immigrants. In a sense I’d like to kill Islam, but without killing any people. But again, this will take centuries of education and non-Muslims being non-violent and pleasantly civilized towards Muslims. Nothing strengthens Abrahamic religious belief like persecution (think of early Christianity for example, or “prophet” Mohammed’s wars of retaliation against the persecutory Meccans).
I think one of the points is to not think of Islam as one thing. I recall discussing some issues with a group of Muslim women from Malaysia in one of my classes about ten years ago. I'd heard (male) Middle-Eastern Muslims talking about how women could not go out alone, so I was curious what these women thought. They just laughed and said: "We do what we want".

Also, tricky social issues are not confined to Islam. I have a young Indian colleague who is in the process of entering an arranged marriage. She's not particularly enthusiastic about it, but, as she says, it's a case of either going along with her family's wishes, or never seeing them again. I could tell similar stories about Thai relationships...

You're right. I am sensitive about what happened here, and, in a particular the nutters who stated "that's what happens when you allow immigration". In some sense they are right - immigration from Europe wiped out many Native American, Native Australian, and Native New Zealand people.

And, as I said, it's not like UK or Europe here. Here the (mostly British) Europeans are later arrivals, so the idea that everyone should conform to British culture makes little sense (and against our founding documents...). Ethnicity here is European 74%, Maori 15%, Asian 12%, Pacific Island 7%, Middle Eastern/ Latin American/ African 1%. Some of the Asians are Chinese who came here during the gold rushes in the 1800s...

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Re: Europe is for Europeans, says Dalai Lama

Post by Polar Bear » Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:47 pm

You raise a good point to not treat Islam as one thing. And certainly religions are malleable so unpleasant aspects of them can fade away over time. After a little bit of thought I’ve decided I don’t want to contribute any further to anti-Islam posting even if it isn’t exactly anti-Muslim, I.e. anti-person. My discomfort with the religion of Islam reaches back before my interest in Buddhism and when I feel more centered in right intention, as opposed to being centered in my less restrained dispositions with all their foibles, I wonder if expressing my discomfort constitutes a kind of divisive speech, at least at times, especially on a forum where the “speech” lasts indefinitely.

Anyway, the Europeans will have to make their own immigration policies, I have no part to play in their formation, being from the United States and all.

May all humans be freed from suffering, regardless of their views.

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