Trump mideast Peace Plan

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Nicholas
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Trump mideast Peace Plan

Post by Nicholas » Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:51 pm

There is and will be more scoffing, but tomorrow at Noon EST, President Trump will announce a new MidEast Peace plan.
May all seek, find and follow the Path of Tathāgatas.

Bundokji
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Trump mideast Peace Plan

Post by Bundokji » Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:16 am

Nicholas wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:51 pm
There is and will be more scoffing, but tomorrow at Noon EST, President Trump will announce a new MidEast Peace plan.
I expect the deal to offer civil administration to the Palestinians. If the proposed deal is measured against the well-being it produces to both people, it is going to be seen as a good deal. However, in the world we live in, well-being is often associated with control (or sovereignty to use political terms), and this will be the basis for potentially rejecting the deal by Arabs. The way Arabs handled the conflict since the outset lack both intelligence and empathy. I hope for once they will do the right thing, to let go of their stupidity and move forward living normal life.
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.

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Trump mideast Peace Plan

Post by DNS » Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:41 pm

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/loom ... y-n1124481

Expected to come out any moment. From the way it sounds, it appears to be very pro-Israel and not very pro-Palestinian; no compromises and Palestinians were not consulted. Unfortunately, doesn't look like it will make peace.

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Re: Trump mideast Peace Plan

Post by Nicholas » Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:42 pm

Here is the full text downloadable from Scribd - about 16MB:

https://www.scribd.com/document/4446269 ... from_embed
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Re: Trump mideast Peace Plan

Post by DNS » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:12 pm

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Re: Trump mideast Peace Plan

Post by DNS » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:13 pm

It appears that all of present day Jerusalem will be under Israeli control. I don't think the Palestinians will like that or approve of that. It calls for Palestinians having East Jerusalem, but it appears that does not include any of the holy sites for Muslims, including Al-aqsa mosque and Dome of the Rock.

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Re: Trump mideast Peace Plan

Post by DNS » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:20 pm

It's a pretty good attempt, though, imo, but falls short of being fair or equitable. Notice the much higher amount of land for Israel. If they solve the Jerusalem issue, something like the International zone called for in the 1947 UN agreement, then maybe it would work.

Anyone heard of any responses yet from Palestinians?

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Re: Trump mideast Peace Plan

Post by DNS » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:23 pm

https://apnews.com/0dcb0179faf41e1870f35838058f4d18

Googled it and found it. As expected, they reject it.

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Re: Trump mideast Peace Plan

Post by Nicholas » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:24 pm

DNS wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:20 pm

Anyone heard of any responses yet from Palestinians?
I saw one of their reps on Euro News and he said, in effect, worthless & not acceptable. The interviewer said, in effect, the text has not even been seen by you, so why toss it aside? More huffing about Zionist monsters etc.
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Re: Trump mideast Peace Plan

Post by Bundokji » Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:24 pm

The plan is realistic and if the Palestinians really have the intention for peace, they should accept it.

The plan does not divide Jerusalem and allows it to be the capital for both nations. If the Palestinians negotiate skillfully, they should focus on $$$$ when it comes to Muslim sites. The plan seem to imply that Christian sites under Israeli control, so Palestinians should negotiate on that too.

Why Arabs have no less interest in accepting the deal than Israel? because the conflict with Israel has been used to justify many shortcomings and corruption that has nothing to do with Israel. On the other hand, Israel was able to progress despite its existence in a hostile region.

Should the Palestinians have the real intention for peace and leading a normal life, they should acknowledge Israeli security concerns (of which the whole peace proposal is constructed around) and they should have no problems in fulfilling their obligations voluntarily.
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.

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Re: Trump mideast Peace Plan

Post by Bundokji » Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:27 pm

What i disliked about the peace plan though is its reference to Iran as a mutual threat. Regional integration can be achieved through good will, not necessarily through reference to a common enemy.
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.

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Re: Trump mideast Peace Plan

Post by Bundokji » Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:30 pm

I also think that both the Palestinians and the Israelis should be grateful for the US mediation efforts (when they do not have to). Their generosity extends to spend some of their tax payers money into economic developments for the Palestinians in particular and the region in general. This kind of interfering should be welcomed and met with gratitude unlike sending troops and military interventions.
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.

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Re: Trump mideast Peace Plan

Post by DNS » Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:38 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:24 pm
The plan does not divide Jerusalem and allows it to be the capital for both nations. If the Palestinians negotiate skillfully, they should focus on $$$$ when it comes to Muslim sites. The plan seem to imply that Christian sites under Israeli control, so Palestinians should negotiate on that too.
Where do you see that? To me, it looks like Jerusalem is all in Israel's hands and the Palestinians just get some piece of land to the East of Jerusalem, not really Jerusalem, to call as their capital.

But I agree, the Palestinians have to stop just blanket rejecting every proposal and sit down to actual peace talks. It's like 1947 all over again, deja vu with Israel accepting, Palestinians rejecting; and then Palestinians getting nothing.

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Re: Trump mideast Peace Plan

Post by DNS » Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:38 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:30 pm
I also think that both the Palestinians and the Israelis should be grateful for the US mediation efforts (when they do not have to). Their generosity extends to spend some of their tax payers money into economic developments for the Palestinians in particular and the region in general. This kind of interfering should be welcomed and met with gratitude unlike sending troops and military interventions.
:thumb:

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Re: Trump mideast Peace Plan

Post by Nicholas » Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:56 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:27 pm
What i disliked about the peace plan though is its reference to Iran as a mutual threat. Regional integration can be achieved through good will, not necessarily through reference to a common enemy.
If there is anything about history of the Middle East for the last 100 + years, it is that goodwill is close to zero and enemies abound. So practically speaking, using Iran the enemy is legit and useful.
May all seek, find and follow the Path of Tathāgatas.

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Re: Trump mideast Peace Plan

Post by Bundokji » Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:58 pm

DNS wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:38 pm
Where do you see that? To me, it looks like Jerusalem is all in Israel's hands and the Palestinians just get some piece of land to the East of Jerusalem, not really Jerusalem, to call as their capital.
From the peace plan page 21
While a physical division of the city must be avoided, a security barrier currently exists that does not follow the municipal
boundary and that already separates Arab neighborhoods (i.e., Kafr Aqab, and the eastern part of Shuafat) in Jerusalem
from the rest of the neighborhoods in the city.
This physical barrier should remain in place and should serve as a border between the capitals of the two parties.
Jerusalem will remain the sovereign capital of the State of Israel, and it should remain an undivided city. The sovereign
capital of the State of Palestine should be in the section of East Jerusalem located in all areas east and north of the existing
security barrier, including Kafr Aqab, the eastern part of Shuafat and Abu Dis, and could be named Al Quds or another name
as determined by the State of Palestine
But I agree, the Palestinians have to stop just blanket rejecting every proposal and sit down to actual peace talks. It's like 1947 all over again, deja vu with Israel accepting, Palestinians rejecting; and then Palestinians getting nothing.
After i finished reading the document, i thought i would check Facebook to see people's reaction. What i saw was not pleasing. I am almost certain that none of them read the proposal. All they care about is to express their anger and hatred in order to get likes on Facebook.
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.

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Re: Trump mideast Peace Plan

Post by Nicholas » Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:59 pm

More details from the White House:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/peacetoprosperity/
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Re: Trump mideast Peace Plan

Post by Bundokji » Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:02 am

Nicholas wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:56 pm
If there is anything about history of the Middle East for the last 100 + years, it is that goodwill is close to zero and enemies abound. So practically speaking, using Iran the enemy is legit and useful.
If the plan is to create a better future, then the past is something to learn from. If goodwill is close to zero in the past as you stated, then continuation of old methods does not indicate learning from history. There are better ways of changing behavior than designating and reducing others as enemies.
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.

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Re: Trump mideast Peace Plan

Post by Nicholas » Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:04 am

Bundokji wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:02 am
Nicholas wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:56 pm
If there is anything about history of the Middle East for the last 100 + years, it is that goodwill is close to zero and enemies abound. So practically speaking, using Iran the enemy is legit and useful.
If the plan is to create a better future, then the past is something to learn from. If goodwill is close to zero in the past as you stated, then continuation of old methods does not indicate learning from history. There are better ways of changing behavior than designating and reducing others as enemies.
Hatred or fear of Iran by the Palestinians is just one element, not the basis of the entire Plan.
May all seek, find and follow the Path of Tathāgatas.

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Re: Trump mideast Peace Plan

Post by Bundokji » Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:09 am

Nicholas wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:04 am
Bundokji wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:02 am
Nicholas wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:56 pm
If there is anything about history of the Middle East for the last 100 + years, it is that goodwill is close to zero and enemies abound. So practically speaking, using Iran the enemy is legit and useful.
If the plan is to create a better future, then the past is something to learn from. If goodwill is close to zero in the past as you stated, then continuation of old methods does not indicate learning from history. There are better ways of changing behavior than designating and reducing others as enemies.
Hatred or fear of Iran by the Palestinians is just one element, not the basis of the entire Plan.
Hence i stated that it is the only thing i did not like about the plan.
'Too much knowledge leads to scepticism. Early devotees are the likeliest apostates, as early sinners are senile saints.' – Will Durant.

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