Romanian "PC" party asks for 3 to 10 years inprisonment for promotion of communist symbols or ideas

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dxm_dxm
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Romanian "PC" party asks for 3 to 10 years inprisonment for promotion of communist symbols or ideas

Post by dxm_dxm » Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:02 pm

One of the 3 important parties of Romania, the one that is the counterpart of PC people in USA to an extent, is asking for 3 to 10 years prison punishment for promoting communist symbols or ideas: https://adevarul.ro/news/politica/usr-c ... index.html

This is the party promoted by the young, urban, wealthy, smart, etc. It's not the one using nationalism, populism, and low level stuff for countryside people.

Why can't we see this kind of attitude from PC people in USA too? You can be PC without communism. Who told you that you have to swallow that up as part of the PC package? If you can't get rid of PC, then at least channel this censorship attitudes towards something useful, towards censoring truly bad ideas, like communism or nazism. Communism is consider to be much more dangerous than nazism here because with communism, besides authoritarian, corrupt state rule, you also end up in African levels of GDP per capita. And the overall evilness, maliciousness, stupidity and sadism of it all is much bigger in communism.

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Romanian "PC" party asks for 3 to 10 years inprisonment for promotion of communist symbols or ideas

Post by Kim O'Hara » Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:04 pm

This isn't easy for those of us outside Romania to make sense of, unfortunately.
One reason is that "PC" is such a useless term - it means what the user wants it to mean and it is usually used just to denigrate and offend, like "SJW" (see viewtopic.php?f=7&t=430).

If you can describe this "PC party" for us without using "PC", it would help.

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Re: Romanian "PC" party asks for 3 to 10 years inprisonment for promotion of communist symbols or ideas

Post by dxm_dxm » Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:51 pm

"PC" = the attitude of censorship, no matter towards who it is directed. You want to censor communism and nazism? Sorry, you are PC. You're exactly the kind of person who would rationalize voting for Hitler or Stalin. I would love to see Russia Today censored and banned in all western countries, same as western channels are censored and banned in Russia. Yet, if you do that, the next thing you know a lot of other things will start looking the same as in Rusia. That's the problem with PC philosophy.

"PC People" = 15% of the american population, bigger than the ultra-fundamentalist population standing at 12%.

These surreal numbers of extremist in USA is due to being a semi-democracy with only 2 parties. In Romania, pure american PC (with all the gender stuff included), which here is called "sexo-marxism" is standing at 0.8%, while the ultra-fundamentalist nationalist are standing at 2-3%. This is happening because, in a pluri-party system, mainstream media is allied with mainstream parties. A 1% nationalist or sexo-marxist extremist party is stealing votes from mainstream parties, that's why it will get ridiculed and crushed on TV. And it's very easy to crush such parties, it's not like it's too difficult. In a two party system, extremist are only helping your party and you are kinda forced into building and radicalizing them due to the fact that the other party is doing it too. In my opinion, this is the main reason why the percentage of extremist (15%+ 12%) and the level of political polarization is so high in USA.

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Re: Romanian "PC" party asks for 3 to 10 years inprisonment for promotion of communist symbols or ideas

Post by Dorje Shedrub » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:13 pm

dxm_dxm wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:51 pm
"PC" = the attitude of censorship, no matter towards who it is directed. You want to censor communism and nazism? Sorry, you are PC. You're exactly the kind of person who would rationalize voting for Hitler or Stalin. I would love to see Russia Today censored and banned in all western countries, same as western channels are censored and banned in Russia. Yet, if you do that, the next thing you know a lot of other things will start looking the same as in Rusia. That's the problem with PC philosophy.
PC stands for politically correct, and as Kim said, is usually used in a derogatory manner to condemn people being sensitive to others.

I am confused by your first paragraph as it seems contradictory. You say a PC person would censor Communism and Nazism but also vote for Stalin and Hitler.

In any case, unlike many other countries, freedom of speech is the first protected right in the U.S. constitution. It would be unconstitutional to censor any political expression, even though the government has done so in the past (arresting socialists and communists).

There are very narrow legal limits to free speech such as: incitement to violence, fighting words, false statements of fact, obscenity, libel, slander, etc. However, this gets into muddy waters and many court cases. (See:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_ ... exceptions).

DS
"As far as social economic theory is concerned, I am Marxist. " ~ HHDL

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Re: Romanian "PC" party asks for 3 to 10 years inprisonment for promotion of communist symbols or ideas

Post by dxm_dxm » Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:48 pm

Dorje Shedrub wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:13 pm
PC stands for politically correct, and as Kim said, is usually used in a derogatory manner to condemn people being sensitive to others.
"PC" - as used today, refers to a 15% demographic from USA. It's known for promotion of censorship and usage of authoritarian methods in politics.
I am confused by your first paragraph as it seems contradictory. You say a PC person would censor Communism and Nazism but also vote for Stalin and Hitler.
In order to establish a working democracy and maintain it for a long time, you need something important. You need the population to be educated about why the system is built like that, what are it's dangers and how it can get destroyed. A significant portion of the public needs to be educated about the constitution, the principle of power separation, the principle of freedom of speech, etc.

Still, in any society, there will be people that don't understand how this democratic system works. They may be otherwise good intended people, but they might get tricked into supporting a cause that proposes the replacement or radical altering of this democratic system.

99 times out of 100, when some politician or political party is using this type of tactics, not respecting the rules and the level playing field, behaving like the mob - 99 out of 100 times, they will not know when to stop. They will rationalize anything, they will rationalize even a brutal dictatorship that murders 33% of its population (like in the Buddhist country of Cambodia) Little by little, they will keep pushing until you will be totally unable to criticize them without getting in jail, as it's happening in Russia right now.

No matter under what flavors and blends such extremist, anti-democratic political forces come, they should raise alarm bells. History has shown that it's highly, highly statistically unlikely that totally unfair people will suddenly start to behave fair after giving them all the power they demand. On the contrary, the more power you give them, the more aggressive and authoritarian they tend to become.

People that can rationalize anything are considered dangerous because they don't have a break pedal. That's why democracies try to keep extremism at low levels. The PC party who proposed the law, an otherwise good and respected party, was heavily criticized by the little press that supports it. This type of urban, educated votes are exactly the ones that are gona have a problem with that type of thing. It was labeled as "primitive anti-communism of the 90s". It's not enough to be anti-communist in order to establish a democracy. And think that, the more aggressively anti-communist you are, then the more democratic you become. Nope, it doesn't work like that. You also have to respect those values and those limits yourself. As a matter of fact, you need to be the first one to embrace and obey to all democratic rules of the game.

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Re: Romanian "PC" party asks for 3 to 10 years inprisonment for promotion of communist symbols or ideas

Post by Kim O'Hara » Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:52 pm

dxm_dxm wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:48 pm
Dorje Shedrub wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:13 pm
PC stands for politically correct, and as Kim said, is usually used in a derogatory manner to condemn people being sensitive to others.
"PC" - as used today, refers to a 15% demographic from USA. It's known for promotion of censorship and usage of authoritarian methods in politics.
Hi, dxm_dxm,
I agree totally with the rest of your post, but your use of "PC" is so different from the way most native-English-speaking Westerners would use it that it doesn't help us at all in understanding you.
Perhaps you could give us the name of the party and a link to a description of it?

:namaste:
Kim

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Re: Romanian "PC" party asks for 3 to 10 years inprisonment for promotion of communist symbols or ideas

Post by Pseudobabble » Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:09 pm

Kim O'Hara wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:52 pm
dxm_dxm wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:48 pm
Dorje Shedrub wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:13 pm
PC stands for politically correct, and as Kim said, is usually used in a derogatory manner to condemn people being sensitive to others.
"PC" - as used today, refers to a 15% demographic from USA. It's known for promotion of censorship and usage of authoritarian methods in politics.
Hi, dxm_dxm,
I agree totally with the rest of your post, but your use of "PC" is so different from the way most native-English-speaking Westerners would use it that it doesn't help us at all in understanding you.
Perhaps you could give us the name of the party and a link to a description of it?

:namaste:
Kim
It isn't that different. He is talking about Social Justice Warriors.

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Dorje Shedrub
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Re: Romanian "PC" party asks for 3 to 10 years inprisonment for promotion of communist symbols or ideas

Post by Dorje Shedrub » Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:34 pm

I believe it is the Save Romania Union (PCR) party. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Save_Ro ... on#/search

DS
"As far as social economic theory is concerned, I am Marxist. " ~ HHDL

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Romanian "PC" party asks for 3 to 10 years inprisonment for promotion of communist symbols or ideas

Post by Kim O'Hara » Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:50 pm

Dorje Shedrub wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:34 pm
I believe it is the Save Romania Union (PCR) party. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Save_Ro ... on#/search

DS
Looks like it.
And, just going by the wikipedia article, it's more "anti-corruption" than "PC" or "SJW".

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Re: Romanian "PC" party asks for 3 to 10 years inprisonment for promotion of communist symbols or ideas

Post by dxm_dxm » Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:44 am

It's absolutely not "PC" in the american sense. As I mentioned, we actually do have a party like that standing at 0.8%, and even those 0.8 are mainly ecologist not believers in what here is called "sexo-marxism". They are so small nobody even bothers making fun of them.

But this party is voted by the same demographic (young, urban, etc.) and all opposition parties in RO are using the same type of rhetoric and tactics as the democrats in USA. For example, professional protestors are a weapon available to this type of camp, with this type of demographic. The other camp has, for example, the conspiracy theory weapon, due to their demographic. You get my point. It's like how the fundamentalist demographic of Israel can be considered the counterparts of the USA fundamentalist demographic.

In eastern europe, the ex-communist parties (today rebranded as social democrats) are the ones running on alt-right Putinist style rhetoric, relying on countryside voters. The liberal opposition, naturally, is using the type of rhetoric and behavior the democrats use, due to their demographic.

This USR party is the counterpart of the 15% PC demographic from USA. The liberal opposition at large is the counterpart of the 50% democrats demographic.

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Re: Romanian "PC" party asks for 3 to 10 years inprisonment for promotion of communist symbols or ideas

Post by Kim O'Hara » Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:21 am

Thanks - that's clearer now.

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Re: Romanian "PC" party asks for 3 to 10 years inprisonment for promotion of communist symbols or ideas

Post by dxm_dxm » Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:45 pm

I've checked what is going on with the subject right now. Apparently, liberal voters are split in half, according to a poll. The PC guys do have a point. Their argument is that we do have a similar law for Nazism (I didn't know that). They ask why shouldn't we do that for communism, that was 100x worse and enslaved us for 50 years while Nazism was in power here for under 10 years before WW2.

Another argument they have is that the undemocratic, but pragmatic, censorship of Nazism, was justified to the democratic audience using the argument of class hatred. They claimed Nazism is an ideology that promotes hatred between different segments of the population and so, there is no problem suspending democracy and liberalism in that case. The thing is, communism does the same thing on steroids with their class hatred. Communist killed or sent to the labor camp the intellectuals and rich people. Even if they were left alive, they still took their property and distributed bad jobs to them. Even with 2nd or 3rd generations, when hiring people or promoting them (and the state hired 100% of the people in that time) a very important element, in some jobs the most important element, was whether they had so called "good roots" or not. Pretty much anything a person wanted to do was influenced by whether he had good roots or not. "Good roots" meant being born in a peasant or working family, instead of an intellectual or middle class one. Only a person with good roots could make it to high positions of power. Even after communism, we had a series of "Mineriade" in Romania. Mine workers were loaded into trains by the ex-communist president and brought to Bucharest to attack anti-communist protestors. Hundreds of students or university teachers were killed, universities and opposition party headquaters were vandalized, etc. The miners attacked anyone with a bear or dressed in a specific way. Hundreds were killed, thousands injured. They chanted slogans like "We don't think, we work", "Death to the intellectuals", etc. And this was happening in the 90s, after communism ended. The way intellectuals, artists, students, univ teachers were treated during communism makes you wonder how this same type of demographic was actually the one promoting communism in non-communist countries during that time and afterwards. Imagine the Jews that escaped Nazism during WW2, promoting Nazism in their countries. It would have been a total brain fart. Hence the name "useful idiots" that Stalin used for such supporters or communism.

I also found that that the liberal party (other major opposition party, standing at 25%) attempted a similar law in 2016. Even more interesting, the ex-communist party (today the major party in RO and rebranded as social democrats) had their own law of this sort too in 2016, to keep up with the Jones.

Apparently, such a law, at least in its current form, would be unconstitutional and would not pass the supreme court. But there are things that could be introduced, such as forcefully making kids visit Victims of communism museums, better anti-communist propaganda in schools, etc. I'm 100% ok with that kind of awareness stuff but censoring communism completely would be a step towards communism itself. Also, it would make it cooler, same is happening with nazism.

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